Crystal Arrows

[Springheel]

Haven't we already had this discussion, more than once?

[New Horizon]

I don't support the idea of gelatin. Water is simple enough. If we're just getting to the point of changing something for the sake of change, I really don't see the good in it.

[oDDity]

It's not for the sake of change, it's an entirely better idea from start to finish. There'e nothng wrong with change if it's change for the better.

What is wrong is sticking to tradition for tradition's sake alone.

[Springheel]

Gelatin:

 

1. Won't put out a torch if your shot is a little to the left or right.

 

2. Requires you to sit and twidle your thumbs as you wait for it to take effect.

 

3. Wouldn't be useful for putting out chandeliers with multiple candles

 

4. Can't wash away bloodstains.

 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with trying to come up with clockwork arrows--we said we were going to later down the road--but for now the crystal ones are accepted, expected and already half done.

[Darkness_Falls]

I don't stick to tradition for tradition's sake. Crystal arrows are what I like and prefer. It's a proven concept and I like it a lot, even though it may not have much basis in 'reality'. If everything in Thief were real (no magic; logical explanations for everything; architecture and technology from that time only) it would be a thieving sim, not the cool game as we know it. I'm not saying there's no room in the gaming world for a pure thieving sim with 'real world explanations' for everything. Actually, I'd rather like it. But it's just not something I want to do for our mod toolset or campaign. I associate Thief with our mod. It's the glue that binds us all together. If we had agreed to come together to do something completely unrelated to Thief, then I'd be more okay with these different ideas. Because TDS left me extremely unfulfilled with my desire for more Thief, however, I'm at the mercy of Dark Mod to try and rekindle many of the things that I know and love about Thief; rather than go on some tangent.

 

For gelatin arrows being quieter? That's one strike against them for me. If you make a perfectly stealthy thief in every respect, there'll be no challenge. Remember the tap dancing shoes they did away with in TDS? I hated that my feet made no sounds all the sudden. It was a tweak that made the game less fun for me. Same would happen with other stuff if everything else was all the sudden silent or greatly muted.

[oDDity]

1.  Won't put out a torch if your shot is a little to the left or right.

Nor do water arrows. I've hit a torch plenty of times with a water arrow and the thing didn't go out. YOu have to be very accurate with them.

 

2.  Requires you to sit and twidle your thumbs as you wait for it to take effect.

Lol, hardly, 10 seconds at the most. We can decide exactly how long.

 

3.  Wouldn't be useful for putting out chandeliers with multiple candles

Nor would a water arrow. You could eaisly miss some of the candles. The splash is completely random after all.

 

4.  Can't wash away bloodstains.

Good. You shouldn't be casuing any bloodstains n the first place. Throwing water on some blood wouldn't wash away bloodstains anyway way, it would just make a huge watery mess on the floor and when it dried the caked blood would still be there. Dried moss arrows would be much better for soaking up blood.

There's nothing wrong with trying to come up with clockwork arrows--we said we were going to later down the road--but for now the crystal ones are accepted, expected and already half done.

THey're not half done, I haven't even modeled tham yet, and the concepts so far are just the same THief ones.

[Springheel]

You don't model everything for the mod, you know, despite how it looks sometimes.

 

See the first post.

[Ishtvan]

I thought we already voted on keeping water arrows as-is. Isn't it pretty counter productive to be arguing over them now?

[Springheel]

Yep.

[sparhawk]

Right. And basically it's teh same as the rope arrow. It doesn't matter what explanation we give, because ALL of them are contrived.

[oDDity]

Well someone else can model the dopey crystals then - they don't require any thought or modeling skills, being all the same simple primitive with a diffrent colour.

Any one of you can do them.

[sparhawk]

Actually I would love to see different models so they are visually distinctive. We could have done the rope arrow also with a crystal if we don't want to do that. How long does it take for an arrow to be modeled?

[oDDity]

A crystal arrow? 10 minutes. They're basic and require no thought or skill.

If you want crystal arrows for fire, water and moss, then you can't make them all look much different. They're just an arrow wiht a coloured crystal stuck on the end, which operates by 'magic and stuff'.

I literally can't think of anything more tedious and unimaginative.

[sparhawk]

I meant a more fancy arrow like your rope arrow is.

[oDDity]

There is no set time. If you're talking about completely different arrow designs, then they're going to take completely different amounts of time to model.

That rope arrow took 3 or 4 hours. A lot of the time goes ino deciding exactly what it is I'm going to model, and scrappng some ideas when I think they dont' work and starting again etc.

[sparhawk]

So it is about 2-3 days for all the different arrows. Not so much I would say to be an argument that we absolutely have to stick to the crystals.

[oDDity]

Right, so we won't have crystals then. Apart from anything else, it's exactly the sort of blatant plagiarism of Thief we should be avoiding.

I'll get to work on some better concepts. I'm totally bored shitless making charcaters anyway.

[New Horizon]

I don't support the idea of gelatin.  Water is simple enough.  If we're just getting to the point of changing something for the sake of change, I really don't see the good in it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're preaching to the choir man. I'm the least tradition bound person you're going to bump into. I'm simply standing by the crystals for the fans but if you are confident that you can model something that is elegant and does the same thing as their crystal counterparts, then take a stab at it.

 

Although I have to say, I'm losing faith in our structure as a whole. Our inability to stick to decisions doesn't exactly inspire.

[Fingernail]

This kind of decision is pretty aesthetic, though, and represents little else other than how it looks and is animated.

 

Gameplay is where we have to stick to what we agree.

[Domarius]

The problem I see with gelatin is that... I don't even want to think about how we would go animating that - fluid physics are something only possible with the new PPU cards. Water splashes are easy, just throw some blue particles out with gravity.

[oDDity]

Just animate it like a waster splash, but with less radius and breakup.

 

They still perform exactly the same function in the game, whether they're magic crystals or more realistic inventors guild designs.

We only agreed on water crystals becasue no one could think of a better idea at the time.

[sparhawk]

You're preaching to the choir man.  I'm the least tradition bound person you're going to bump into.  I'm simply standing by the crystals for the fans but if you are confident that you can model something that is elegant and does the same thing as their crystal counterparts, then take a stab at it.

 

I don't think that this is really an issue to make them dissapointed. So far they liked what Oddity modeled, and I seriously doubt that they would prefer boring concepts over interesting ones, as long as it doesn't affect gameplay in a negative manner.

 

Although I have to say, I'm losing faith in our structure as a whole.  Our inability to stick to decisions doesn't exactly inspire.

 

I think there are issues which have more leeway then others. If you have a minor effort with a minor impact then it can be more easily changed then something that takes a lot of effort. This is the major point that should be considered when something is changed. If you want to have another faction, this would create a problem, because it takes a lot of effort to do, but if you want to have a cinderbox modeled then it is not really much. That's why I asked Oddity how long he takes for an arrow in the first place.

[sparhawk]

For water I think the crystals are ok. But having crystals for the other ones, is just boring and easy to do. For example the fire arrow could be a realistic fire arrow with some cloth wound around it and smoking. This would also explain why the player is lit up when it is out of the box.

[Springheel]

The crystal arrows are fine and are what we decided on after our LAST argument on this issue. I can't be bothered to restate the same arguments.

 

We already have a crystal arrow modeled and BT has already textured the water one (what do you think that picture was of, anyway?).

 

If someone wants to invent other arrows, go ahead--FM authors can always choose which ones they want to use.

 

But I'm with NH...all this rehashing of old issues is getting tiresome.

[Springheel]

The crystal arrows are fine and are what we decided on after our LAST argument on this issue. I can't be bothered to restate the same arguments.

 

We already have a crystal arrow modeled and BT has already textured the water one (what do you think that picture was of, anyway?).

 

If someone wants to invent other arrows, go ahead--FM authors can always choose which ones they want to use.

 

But I'm with NH...all this rehashing of old issues is getting tiresome. Are we going to argue over the lightgem model next?