Crystal Arrows

[oDDity]

Ok, name me another game with water, fire, gas, moss and vine arrows, used by the main character, a thief, who sneaks around medieval and steampunk environments using a lghtgem. That's only the tip of what we're copying.

We are sooo going to get busted by the owners of the Thief rights, and blatantly copying things like all the crystal arrows verbatim, is just handing them our dicks.

[Springheel]

I've actually mellowed on this issue a bit since it started. I favoured the crystal arrows initially because they were traditional. And I do think map placement is a valid issue. However, the crystal arrows are very integral to "Thief", appearing in virtually all the promotional artwork and covers. So there would be some benefit to getting away from that.

 

I do think Thief fans will want to see crystal arrows, and if we don't provide them someone will simply make their own mod for it, just like someone modded the blackjack back into T2X.

 

My favoured solution now is actually to include both, with the mechanical versions as the default. That way support for the crystal arrows is there but only if the FM author does the work of swapping them, keeping our hands clean of the whole thing.

 

As far as map placement goes, the FM author can again decide what best fits his map. A map in a cave or outdoor environment would probably want to go with the crystal arrows. A map in a castle or mansion might find it easier to justify mechanical arrows than crystals growing in kitchen sinks. It also gives FM authors a little more power over their setting, allowing them to create more non-magical stories if they prefer.

[sparhawk]

That's IMO the best solution. And since we get it for free (as in no additional development needed) I think it would be a waste to not include them. The lightgem is also used in other games by now. Sneaker games also are not THAT uncommon, so currently I'm not really worried about the "copying" aspect. But it doesn't hurt to have something in the back in case these really becomes an issue. BTW: Is Eidos totally destroyed? I was observing the stockmarket a bit and I noticed that the stockid for Eidos as been removed some time ago.

[oDDity]

Eidos was sold a long time ago, I have no idea who owns it now, I think bono from U2 was one of the buyers, but that doesn't mean they won't give a shit who copies it.

I think we should have water, fire and gas crystals as a choice for the Thief fanatics, who won't be happy until every single Thief place, item and character has been put back. The moss and vine arrows were never crystals and are just that vague 'magic' of some sort.

[sparhawk]

I guess the fans might rebuild all the traditional props back in anyway. So we don't have to worry about that.

[Darkness_Falls]

Is there a point to having someone re-work everything like New Horizon is doing with his Minimalist Projects, though, when we can present them most of the things they'll need to begin with? I think it's practically a given they will build crystal arrows to circumvent whatever arrows we create that are not-crystal.

[oDDity]

Not everyone is a fanatic though. Many will be happy with what we give them.

[Darkness_Falls]

I think you may be right. I hope so

[Subjective Effect]

Actually, oDDity does have a point. This isn't Thief, this is The Dark Mod, and the crystal arrows are very iconic to the Thief series. In fact the mechanics of them are too but since they actually make sense I think it's fair to use the functions.

 

The models oDDity offered were all pretty cool and would work. Personally I don't like the fire or gas arrows but that's because they use too much metal and it could be done in a different and better way. I think the water arrow concept is great and could be modified for the gas. Fire arrows should be molotov cocktail style as I've said before. That would look gritty as hell and be much cooler than some magic thing.

 

But realise this: - creation of new arrows that are not crytal arrows will make TDM different and original. It will remove it from being a copy of Thief that much more, just like everything else that has been altered does.

 

Finally - anyone who really, really wants crystal arrows will just add them. But it will not be the responsibility of TDM and Eidos will have no ground to stand on.

[Springheel]

We can still put this to a vote if necessary, but is anyone other than NH strongly opposed to the idea of providing both versions, but making the clockwork designs the defaults?

 

Once we get that out of the way, we can start talking about the specifics of the arrow designs.

[pakmannen]

I do think Thief fans will want to see crystal arrows, and if we don't provide them someone will simply make their own mod for it, just like someone modded the blackjack back into T2X.

 

And if we go with the crystals, nothing will stop Oddity from releasing his arrows as an add-on anyway, so we might as well pack them with the original mod.

[New Horizon]

I'm only opposed to the clockwork designs if they veer off into some cumbersome construction system. Perhaps they're powered by crystals and without the mechanical interface they're useless. I don't know. The useage of the arrows remains the same, it's simply an asthetic change...my only concern is that we come up with an elegant way for FM authors to populate their missions with replenishment without having to swap crystals or mechanical devices based on the environment.

[oDDity]

Replenisment of arrows is hardly an essential element of a level, and there's always chests or locked containers of some kind in every level for them to put arrows in if they feel it necessary, no matter what they're made of.

[Subjective Effect]

It only matters if you want to find fire crystals in fire and so on. I was nice but not essential.

 

I'm against both arrow types being included for the reasons I've already stated.

[New Horizon]

Replenisment of arrows is hardly an essential element of a level, and there's always chests or locked containers of some kind in every level for them to put arrows in if they feel it necessary, no matter what they're made of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, they simply won't be as versatile in their placement...it's not essential but it does help the gameplay in some regard. C'est la vie. Mechanical it is then.

[Springheel]

I agree, no complicated ingredient system. In a map with crystal arrows, you find crystals. In a map with clockwork arrows, you find arrows. Both kinds of maps will have places where arrows make sense and others where they seem contrived.

[Darkness_Falls]

It only matters if you want to find fire crystals in fire and so on. It was nice but not essential.

It was very nice, but not essential.

 

On the flip side of the fence: If Thief 2 had instead used clockwork arrows and we were proposing crystal arrows for TDM, I'd say clockwork arrows were nice, but not essential.

 

Regardless, I agree with Springheel that we should provide both. This way, if an FM author wanted to have a level focused on Pagans or has a lot of caverns and such, s/he could use crystals. If, on the other hand, it was a level based on mansions, clockwork and steam engines, then they would instead use the more mechanical/clockwork arrows.

 

With this, I think it's a good compromise, and think it would actually be cool to be able to tailor your arrow supply for the type of level you're making so the player gets more wrapped up in the world s/he is playing in. Do you agree?

 

EDIT: And this is in-line with the thinking of why some Thief levels feature rope arrows, while others have vine arrows. Same sort of thing.

[sparhawk]

I'm only opposed to the clockwork designs if they veer off into some cumbersome construction system.

 

I will implement this anway because I like the idea and I want to see how it works. I guess most of you are just opposed because it's not in Thief and you can't imagine how it would work.

[sparhawk]

I agree, no complicated ingredient system.  In a map with crystal arrows, you find crystals.  In a map with clockwork arrows, you find arrows.  Both kinds of maps will have places where arrows make sense and others where they seem contrived.

 

You do realize that this is not your choice anyway? If the map designer puts all type of arrows in his map, what will you do? Since there is no difference for the gameplaymechanics it is just a matter what the player sees when he finds an arrow.

[oDDity]

I changed my mind and don't think we should include crystal arrows at all, even as an alternative.

It's doens't make any sense.

We may as well include an alternate faction called the Hammerites and an alternate main character called Garrett - and which one do you think Thief fans will use?

Of course they will use the Hammerites, Garrett and the crystal arrows, because people are stubborn old traditionalists by nature.

Yes, people will no doubt make some hammerites, a Garrett character, and every single other element from the Thief games, right down to the wart on Keeper Orland's right buttock, but that's not the same as us officially releasing them as an option.

I say make our own designs and boldy declare them as the standard, not timidly cower up to Thief fans like we know we've done something wrong by not including crystals.

[Subjective Effect]

I agree with you on priciple 100% oDDity.

 

But the fact that you can find crystals within a level is appealing. I don't quite know how you could have the same thing with the practical (what is with this "mechanical"? they aren't all mechanical - only 1 is really) ones.

 

One thing that really annoyed me in Thief was when you found a crystal you automatically got an arrow of that type. Where did the arrow shaft and flight come from? I always thought that you should lose a broadhead since you'd take the head off and replace it with the crystal. Or have the option to use the crystal and only lose the broadhead when you made the decision to use it.

[sparhawk]

You see? With building them yourself, this would be solved as well.

[oDDity]

It doesn't matter why a gelatin arrow is locked in a chest in some nobleman's mansion. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter any more than the thief wearing loud boots matters. It's a gameplay device, and doen't have to be explained.

I'm not against finding ingredient to make your arrows, it would be a nice feature, but it certainly isn't necessary.

[Springheel]

I guess most of you are just opposed because it's not in Thief and you can't imagine how it would work.

 

I can imagine exactly how it would work. It's a system that already exists in lots of other games. It just doesn't make sense for a stealth game, where inventory shuffling is not part of the gameplay. You might as well include a full inventory system.

 

You do realize that this is not your choice anyway? If the map designer puts all type of arrows in his map, what will you do?

 

He won't be able to put all kinds in unless he adds more weapons slots. But we're talking about good map design. Of course a mapmaker can make whatever ridiculous map he wants.

[Darkness_Falls]

It doesn't matter why a gelatin arrow is locked in a chest in some nobleman's mansion. It just doesn't matter.

But where's the ingenuity in that? That's the problem is that there are fewer creative ways, imo, to place machine-manufactured arrows. At least you can have some ingenuity with crystals since they can be interpreted as naturally forming. More options are available.

 

I see nothing wrong with including both. I admit crystal arrows aren't as good to have for mansion levels; while manufactured arrows aren't as good for pagan/cave levels.