Pupil Dilation?

[Ishtvan]

Re: The lantern

 

@Domarius:

When did we decide that the sword and blackjack were undroppable? I remember coming up with some hypothetical undercover missions where it would benefit you to drop your weapons and stash them away somewhere for later.

 

In any case, if I'm wrong and we did decide that the sword/blackjack were undroppable, that was a compromise, since some people wanted to be able to drop them as well. You can't really use that compromise decision to justify further undroppable things like the lantern. It's not like dropping the lantern serves no purpose either. As many people have pointed out, you could set it down to have a light source and have your hands free to do other things; shoot a rope arrow, pick locks, fight zombies, whatever. Making it not dropable eliminates those possibilities and makes the use of the lantern much more awkward.

 

If we're not going to trust the player with their equipment, why don't we code flashbombs to only be droppable when there are AI nearby, since we wouldn't want the player to waste a flashbomb they might really need later. And when you aim the rope arrow at something it won't stick in and try to shoot it, the character could just say "uh-uh" instead of firing the bow, because you might need a rope arrow to get up somewhere, and if you fired it into a brick wall you'd be stuck!

[Domarius]

Uhh, it was actually me who first suggested dropping the lantern to be able to do other things. Have a look at page 1 of this thread. While that is a valid use, I am just saying why I think in principal it should be undroppable by default. Like the arrow orientation I brought up in the other thread, it makes sense for the default settings to be the most used settings. And most of the time, it doesn't make sense to be allowed to drop certain things.

 

I convinced you all that droppable should be a property of every inventory item that the author can change. So, thanks to me, you can create your mission that requires you to drop your weapons, and another author can set them to be undroppable if they don't want to spend effort creating contrived "alternate options" when that effort would be better spent elsewhere.

 

When did we decide that the sword and blackjack were undroppable?.

I was referring to the original Thief games of course. Weapons were undroppable, consumables were droppable.

[bob_arctor]

Actually, I know this sounds silly, but I wouldn't mind having Mr Thief tell me my rope arrow wouldn't work.

I know you can use normal arrows to test trajectories but it's more if you can't tell in a mission (Usually, if not always an FM) what a surface is supposed to be, and whether it could support a rope arrow, so you try it with a normal arrow but it makes loads of noise so you reload.

 

Mind you if there are climbing gloves or something as well as rope arrows that would be best. Never leave an arrow behind!

[sparhawk]

Sure we reached a desicion and its been documented, but I'm not happy with it and here's why;

 

Everyone conveniently forgets that the blackjack, sword, and compass are all undroppable.

 

Think about it - do you see an "alternate blackjack" item lying around in every mission? No, because it's impossible to lose the one you have.

 

You seem to forget that that there were missions where you had to pickup the blackjack. So even though you can't drop it, it means that the mapper has SOME influence. And the same can be done for TDM as well.

 

And if you expect the author to make an alternate "non-lantern" way to complete the level, you would also expect them to make an alternate "non-blackjack" way to complete the level if they dropped the blackjack?

 

There IS a non-blackajable alternative already built in, remember? It's called ghosting. So it's not strictly impossible to NOT win just because your blackjakc would be gone. It just makes it easier.

 

I like Spar's boneheaded response - "That's the author's problem." Wow, you convinced me, very well thought out Why should they go to the extra work?

 

Apparently you think that we should anticipate all kind of stupidities and prevent them. this IS the problem of the author and the player (depoending on the actual action).

 

So an author screwed up and made an impssoibie way because he didn't properly test? No way! We must ensure that the player can succeed in all cases and must implement an automitc geometry updated to make sure that no impasse exists in a map where the player could stuck in case the author doesn't pay enough attention.

The player doesn't find all loot? No way! How can this be? We must ensure that at the end of the map the player really has all loot, so we should make a button for this as well.

[sparhawk]

I was referring to the original Thief games of course. Weapons were undroppable, consumables were droppable.

 

Just in case you didn't notice this. WE were not making ANY decisions for the original Thief games.

[sparhawk]

Mind you if there are climbing gloves or something as well as rope arrows that would be best. Never leave an arrow behind!

 

I NEVER left a rope arrow behind and never had climbing gloves in T1/T2.

[Springheel]

When did we decide that the sword and blackjack were undroppable?

 

We definitely are allowing them to be dropped before you start a mission, in the purchase screen. I don't know that we ever decided to allow them to be dropped during the game (what mechanism would be used to do that?)

 

If a FM author wants to make something specificially undroppable, they certainly can go and do it. I personally don't see why we should go out of our way to make ANYTHing undroppable by default.

[ZylonBane]

I personally don't see why we should go out of our way to make ANYTHing undroppable by default.

Dur, because allowing the player to drop essential equipment like the blackjack makes it entirely too easy for the player to screw himself. "Oops, dropped my blackjack down a bottomless pit!" It's the same reason why quest items default to undroppable.

 

Dropping weapons is something that only makes sense in games where they consume inventory space (Deus Ex, SS2, etc). When the only space an item occupies is a hotkey, there's no practical reason to ever want to get rid of it.

 

And in case you're thinking, "What about keys and food and stuff! They don't take space!"... that's true, but they're all lumped into a single pile that you can only access by scrolling through one item at a time, so being able to cull that pile is essential.

Edited February 26, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Springheel]

I wasn't actually talking about the weapons (since they're already undroppable by default, without us having to go 'out of our way' to do it). Though weapons aren't really 'essential equipment' either. Plenty of people play without using the blackjack at all, and you could conceivably do the same with any other equipment (depending on the map, things like rope arrows might be essential, though you can easily lose them by firing them at rock walls--essentially the same as dropping them). If you drop your weapons and desperately need one, you can always equip an appropriate junk item (like a chair leg or kitchen cleaver) as a weapon.

[SneaksieDave]

Welcome, public eyes, to the stuff which is squabble studios. It's so exhausting that this goes on 24/7. Aren't opinions a wonderful thing?

 

There should be an internal rule set for TDM:

 

Whenever the team descends into multi-page debates over completely unimportant, minor, stupid things, (i.e., every day) that the action taken is to implement the "most normal or expected (real world)," or "precendented (as in Thief)," or "most user-friendly (least thought/work required of users)" design.

 

In this case it would be: blackjacks can be dropped, but should be undroppable by default. If an FM author prefers it droppable, he/she need only change one default value. It's dummy-proof and not limited in functionality at all.

 

It can't be expected that everything will always make everyone happy, and sometimes it's better to just decide on something and move on. So... debate over?

 

 

 

 

 

 

(doubtful )

[OrbWeaver]

Whenever the team descends into multi-page debates over completely unimportant, minor, stupid things, (i.e., every day) that the action taken is to implement the "most normal or expected (real world)," or "precendented (as in Thief)," or "most user-friendly (least thought/work required of users)" design.

 

Those three properties would be contradictory for this example - "most normal" would be to have everything droppable, "most precedented" would be to have weapons and quest items undroppable but equipment droppable, and "most user-friendly" would make everything undroppable unless there was a particular gameplay need to drop it.

[SneaksieDave]

Tell me, what is the purpose of that - arguing down someone on semantics, simply because you choose other wording or different interpretation? It doesn't contribute at all and is designed only to provoke. That is the point, right?

 

First, "most normal" as I mean it, is in traditional game design sense. This was hinted at by what ZB said above. Important things = not droppable. "Precedented" referred to how it was handled in, e.g., Thief. I couldn't drop my BJ. "User friendly" meant in terms of design, since this is a toolkit ultimately, and the play is up to the designer. If every FM author needs to go and set the BJ up to be non-droppable, because they care about having failsafes, then it's not the most user-friendly, is it?

 

Second, I didn't say they couldn't be mutually exclusive. That's at least one use of the word "or."

 

Third, I'm trying to affect the fact that all this team ever does is argue. I don't give a shit what they decide (especially since modders will just change it if they see fit) but stop arguing every goddamn stupid fucking little thing to death! I was trying to offer a suggestion, as opposed to more mindless inciteful bickering. So, thanks for the support. No, that's sarcasm. I should say, thanks for proving me right. You should join up!

 

Now come back at me with some kind of logical, cool-headed response that points out other flaws in my wording or logic or grammer (wait for it...) and then we can continue to accomplish nothing. In other words, business as usual. Sorry, but I'm busy trying to figure out light shaders, and having a fuck-all tough time at it. Apparently D3 can do anything, but it's all confusing as shit.

[OrbWeaver]

Tell me, what is the purpose of that - arguing down someone on semantics, simply because you choose other wording or different interpretation? It doesn't contribute at all and is designed only to provoke. That is the point, right?

 

Nope. I am unsure why you even mentioned grammar or spelling, because I certainly didn't.

 

I should say, thanks for proving me right. You should join up!

 

That was the point. If you try to avoid arguments by having a set of "rules" to help you decide, there is still scope for argument about which rules should be used and how they should be defined.

[Ishtvan]

Uhh, it was actually me who first suggested dropping the lantern to be able to do other things. Have a look at page 1 of this thread. While that is a valid use, I am just saying why I think in principal it should be undroppable by default.

 

While it has been brought up even before this public thread started, I appreciate your understanding of how separating the lantern from one's person can be useful. It's useful in a variety of situations too, not just a special case in a single FM. Setting the lantern down to do other things while lit could be useful anywhere it's dark. The great majority of FMs contain places that are dark. Why should this use of the lantern be limited to an FM where the author has specifically gone in and toggled droppable on?

 

For that reason, I don't think this statement of yours applies to the lantern:

And most of the time, it doesn't make sense to be allowed to drop certain things.

Again, it makes sense anywhere it's dark and the player chooses to do something requiring both hands with more light provided by the lantern. You can't predict where that spot will be. It's up to the player and it could be anywhere.

 

If we did make it an FM author option toggled off by default, how would the player know beforehand whether the author toggled the lantern to droppable? Are they expected to pull out their lantern at the beginning of every FM and test it? Or should they wait until they're executing a plan that relies on setting the lantern down for light, like they have gotten used to doing in other missions, and all of a sudden find it's superglued to their hand? No immersion break there.

 

Or even better, you could let them know in the mission briefing. "I have a simple job planned for this evening... Btw, LANTERN IS DROPPABLE."

 

This is starting to go in circles, but I simply am not convinced that this needs more policing than a simple player option of whether to hit the "drop" key. A rational player stays prepared for the worst; if they don't know whether they'll have to go thru a pitch black area, they'll aim to keep the lantern with them in case they do encounter such an area. We all agree that setting down the lantern is not totally useless, in fact it has practical uses. I just hate to see the usefulness of a tool decreased because we choose to baby the player instead, because they might manage to throw their lantern down a bottomless pit.

 

If LGS had taken that approach with all of their player tools, tools would have been a lot less interesting.

 

Anyway, I'd say vote on it if nothing is being resolved by debating, but internally, we already did decide this issue by majority. If Domarius is really not happy about it he can post a new poll in the development forums and see if anyone's changed their mind. I don't think anyone's going to change their mind by now if they haven't already.

[SneaksieDave]

I wasn't trying to bite your head off, Orb (in re-reading my post it kinda sounds like I was) - I'm trying to help bring about less bickering, not become a victim of it. Far too much time and effort on this project goes toward everyone's opinion being the best - which breeds hostility, not creativity - instead of us figuring out and making stuff we need. I'll leave specifics out of public discussion.

 

Let's just pick one. Democracy has it's flaws yes, but wow sometimes nothing else stops the bickering.

[Domarius]

Thanks Sneaksie - doesn't seem like there's much left to discuss but I'll start a thread in the Ideas forum anyway. The nice thing about having discussions out here is there are more people who think differently, and I am not the only one batting for something.

 

Back to Bloom and HDR.

[sparhawk]

If Domarius is really not happy about it he can post a new poll in the development forums and see if anyone's changed their mind. I don't think anyone's going to change their mind by now if they haven't already.

 

If Domarius doesn't like it, he can split off his own personal copy of TDM and see wether this important feature is so important that it's wrth discussing for several weeks. If it is FM authors will certainly download his tree much more often just to get this important feature built in.

[Domarius]

Actually I think the confusion has arisen from a different issue. Changing the default "droppability" of things will only make sense depending on the rules for what can be dropped and when - and judging from some of the posts, this is still unclear between team members. I've raised this issue in the dev forums.

[bob_arctor]

I'm glad personally it looks like the lantern is going with droppable. I personally would find it a) a right pain when I need to find a key/lockpick/anything and extremely contrived! I can't put it down? But I have hands! Let go damn you!

 

I think you made the right choice.

[Domarius]

Hehe, that issue is a drop in the ocean compared to what is going on in the dev forums right now, on the related issue I mentioned. Not to worry, it'll get sorted soon, it always does.

[oDDity]

THe player will be able to drop everything. Zylon may remember I had this exact argument on the Ion forums for T3, which turned into a bit of the flamewar. The T3 team were a bunch of worthless cunts, but we aren't, and we'll be doing it the right way this time.

FM authors will be able to flag certain iems as undroppable, if they are essential for the mission, at all other times the player will not be forced to carry redundant equipment.

THis should rarely be necessary, FM authors should not have to stoop to such hamfisted methods as making tems undroppable, they should make it clear in readables or other clues if a certain widget is needed for a certain door.

[sparhawk]

And since most FMs are built in a non-linear way you can usually go back and ertrieve it. If you dropped it in to a pit of lava, bad luck. Don't do this.

[oDDity]

Also, unlike the Thief games, you will not be forced to take default starting equipment, like blackjack, sword, bow etc, you choose all of your starting equipment, so if you want, you can do the mission with no items or weapons at all.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

jtbalogh, Domarius, you both want waterproof lanterns. the point regarding unlimited fuel is well-founded, the fuel in my lanterns lasts for well over 15 hours on medium brightness. But anything that burns cannot be waterproof. Unless you either make a super-complicated fresh-air-supply old-air-removal system or use oxydizers which allow torches ( a stick with a fuel and a big flame on it) to burn underwater as if on land. But such oxydizers have only been used after the 1950's. I am planning to include tons of chemical factories, advanced chemical technology, and a clan of chemistry fanatics similar to the mechanists with real scientific models and historical facts.

 

pakmannen - you are stating the truth. after entering an unlit closet in bafford's what was pitch black slowly begins to shape itself out.

Vadrosaul - i am of the same opinion regarding bright yellow pages blinding. Although I'm sure it's not something you have to worry about in TDM.

Ishtvan - I agree, the dynamic range of monitor over eyes seems to be inversely proportional to a 2 minute integral of brightness of monitor times brightness of room.

bob_arctor- torches are a wonderful invention creating a very romantic mood. but they don't go out because of too much moisture, only because of not enough oxygen.

good quote: "I have a simple job planned for this evening... Btw, LANTERN IS DROPPABLE." reminds me of "Bucket Get"

 

unlrelated to dropping blackjacks or lanterns: how do i go about taking textures from the walls around me? do I wait for partial cloudyness? do i use an HDR camera? how do i measure the dimensions of nooks and ceilings to accurately portray them in TDM?

[Domarius]

Hey, Team Members - you know we have a dev thread for this line of discussion now, don't you?