Small Question About Doors And Locks

[Maximius]

Will the doors and other locks in the game be re-lockable with a key or the picks? IMHO its perfectly legitimate, and a hell of a lot of fun, to lure AIs into rooms and then block the doors. IIRC in t2 a simple goblet served to jam doors shut and keys relocked doors but not the picks.

[Bukary]

Will the doors and other locks in the game be re-lockable with a key or the picks? IMHO its perfectly legitimate, and a hell of a lot of fun, to lure AIs into rooms and then block the doors. IIRC in t2 a simple goblet served to jam doors shut and keys relocked doors but not the picks.

I think the answer to your question is YES, but some DM team member should confirm.

 

By the way, is there any list of DM (planned) features avaible? It would be good to create such list and keep it sticky.

[Dram]

Hmm, I myself am not sure lol, but I'll check gimme sec. Oh but I really doubt you'll be able to relock doors with the lockpicks, as it'd kinda be dumb - medieval locks locked and unlocked only with a key, modern locks have those buttons which you can push in to lock it. Though I guess technically you could lock the door with you'r lockpicks, but you'd have to lockpick it again lol.

[Dram]

Hmm, can't find it aargh

[New Horizon]

Short answer. Yes.

 

Not being able to re-lock doors in TDS was stupid. You will be able to do it in TDM.

[Dram]

There you go

[sparhawk]

But not with lockpicks.

[Domarius]

Why not?

[sparhawk]

Why yes? It doesn't really make sense to use the lockpicks to relock the doors IMO.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

Exactly. try reading some lockpicking manuals - if it's hard to unlock something, it's almost impossible to re-lock it. You're basically prodding and pushing the tumblers with one pick while turning the lock with the other and hoping it would turn to unlock. How would you lock it again? You'd have to again find the random tumbler arrangement, and I think turning becomes much harder.

[millerdj]

Hi, I've been reading these DM forum postings for quite awhile now, though this is my first post.

 

Exactly. try reading some lockpicking manuals - if it's hard to unlock something, it's almost impossible to re-lock it. You're basically prodding and pushing the tumblers with one pick while turning the lock with the other and hoping it would turn to unlock. How would you lock it again? You'd have to again find the random tumbler arrangement, and I think turning becomes much harder.

 

This is not necessarily correct. Once a lock is picked, all of its pins are set above a sheerline and will not fall back down (i.e. relock) until the lock's plug is rotated back around to the starting position. Because of this, while picking a lock open takes some work, relocking takes no effort at all for some locks because the lock is already picked. Even if a thief removed his/her tools after picking a lock, all he she would have to do to relock it is rotate back the lock plug. This could be done very quickly, essentially a single click frob using a lock pick.

 

If, on the other hand the lock requires a plug turn in the opposite direction past the plug's original position to relock it, then the action required to relock the lock is the same as locking it, just turning the plug in the opposite direction after bringing it to its starting position.

 

In either event, relocking a lock is not at all impossible. I myself would vote for being able to lock guards into rooms they don't have keys for by using lockpicks.

Edited March 8, 2006 by millerdj

[OrbWeaver]

Assuming it's a pin tumbler lock, yes.

[Ishtvan]

Yeah, that makes sense. We could have a toggleable property of the lock for whether it requires the cyllinder to turn past its original locked position or not. If not, you could just re-lock it with a quick turn of your torsion wrench. If so, you'd have to pick it again to lock it. Does anyone know which setup was more common in early pin tumblers?

 

[EDIT: Unless... is it possible to insert a pick when you're turning it back the other way and press it up to block the driver pins from falling back down past the shear line again when it comes to the original position and beyond? It would probably be hard to block all the pins at once, and that's what you'd end up having to do since the ones that set last would be the ones to start falling first. However, if you could do that, maybe you could re-lock it without re-picking it even if the cyllinder has to be turned back past its original position? Do the key pins make doing this impossible?]

[bob_arctor]

I'm all for the freedom of relocking doors, (odd though that sounds, mixing the words freedom and locking).

[tolchocker]

Unless... is it possible to insert a pick when you're turning it back the other way and press it up to block the driver pins from falling back down past the shear line again when it comes to the original position and beyond? It would probably be hard to block all the pins at once, and that's what you'd end up having to do since the ones that set last would be the ones to start falling first. However, if you could do that, maybe you could re-lock it without re-picking it even if the cyllinder has to be turned back past its original position? Do the key pins make doing this impossible?

 

Yes, turning the cylinder back past the pin holes without the pins falling is not really possible with simple tools. A plug spinner would do exactly what you suggest, but I imagine such a tool is beyond the scope of DM.

[New Horizon]

I don't see it being a problem that the player can't re-lock a door that they don't have a key for. Really, there should be a few limitations as to what the player can do to the poor AI. If the FM author provides a key, great...if not...that's life.

[sparhawk]

That's also my opinion. AI is at a big advantage at all times, and we shouldn't make it easier for the player to make it "realistic".

[Ishtvan]

What's the difference gameplay-wise? They spent a while picking the lock, they spent a while finding the key. Why should they be allowed to re-lock the door in one case and not in the other? Are you worried there will be too many opportunities to look the AI in rooms if the player can lock doors without having the key?

[New Horizon]

What's the difference gameplay-wise? They spent a while picking the lock, they spent a while finding the key. Why should they be allowed to re-lock the door in one case and not in the other? Are you worried there will be too many opportunities to look the AI in rooms if the player can lock doors without having the key?

 

It would make keys slightly less valuable.

[Ishtvan]

How so? The realistic value in a key is that you can open a door much more quickly, and can unlock it many times, just as quickly. If you used lockpicks to pick the lock, and then for whatever reason you choose to lock the door again, you would still have to pick it over again once you lock it.

 

Personally I'd be kind've pissed if an AI was coming through checking the locks on doors, and I alerted that AI because I picked a lock and couldn't lock it again, when in reality it would be easy to re-lock.

[Taffer36]

Assuming that there's enough time to do it and it won't be too difficult, why not allow the feature and let the FM designer choose? The more options the better!

[Gildoran]

This has already been suggested on the dev boards, and I think there's a good chance it'll be done.

[sparhawk]

Personally I'd be kind've pissed if an AI was coming through checking the locks on doors, and I alerted that AI because I picked a lock and couldn't lock it again, when in reality it would be easy to re-lock.

 

OK. so in order to make it even for the AI we should allow AI to ignore locks. The the player can relock the doors as much as he likes to.

 

Frankly, I don't think it is a good idea to lure the AI in a locked room.

[Domarius]

Well it seemed like a good idea when I did it in one or two FMs. If you're smart enough to outwit the AI this way, it's very rewarding. It's not really that close to being an exploitation or anything. You could possibly do it in real life - let someone chase you in, sneak out when they got their backs turn and lock the door. It happens on movies even.

[sparhawk]

I know that this is a realistic option. The problem though is, that humans are usually smarter then AI. Which human would stand in one place for some time and you can nudge him to somehwere else? Which humand would stand in one place and fall off a ledge, because the movement of his feet causes him to get ever closer?

AIs are limited by nature, so we should not give the player even more advantages.