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Leaning? Forward Leaning?


Komag

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Okay, I haven't touched Thief 2 or any FMs for it for ages (like over a year and even then only for a couple days) until last week. I fired up T2X and played the whole thing this week and finished it tonight.

 

I can't believe how stupid they were in TDS to screw up leaning!!! It's such a WONDERFUL feature in T1/2, and I love to forward lean as well, very often. I had forgotten how nice it is.

 

I've read a bunch of threads and I know you will have leaning, but what about the forward lean? And how well is the leaning working out? Is it as perfect and nice and in T1/2, or is it kind of wonky as in Far Cry and other games? Somewhere inbetween?

 

Thanks! :)

Edited by Komag
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Well. As long as forward-lean-and-jump-in-the-dark is gone.

 

And leaning better be good. It's unbelievable how many games get it wrong. Often its like rotating horizontally about the navel. That is to say, good for bugger all.

 

Deus Ex and the Dark Engine games got it right. I can't think of any other game which pulled it off well that I can think of.

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Well, I think TDS FMs still have their place for the next while, and I'll play them and maybe even make another one, and MAYBE host another TDS contest (sometime in 2007 perhaps).

 

But all along I've felt the Dark Mod was the best solid future for Thief-type Fan Missions. Back when it was first getting started, before we knew we were going to get a TDS editor, I thought Dark Mod was a great idea and that the Doom 3 engine was the best choice for it.

 

(little dark secret - when T3Ed did get released, I half-wished it hadn't because I was afraid it would detract from Dark Mod development, possibly killing it off altogether. I'm VERY glad my fears were wrong)

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(little dark secret - when T3Ed did get released, I half-wished it hadn't because I was afraid it would detract from Dark Mod development, possibly killing it off altogether. I'm VERY glad my fears were wrong)

 

LOL! For me it was exactly the other way around. I wished that it were not released because I feared that the editor would draw so much attention, that our work would have been wasted because nobody wants to used it. :)

Gerhard

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I'm a bit confused, because that sort of sounds like what I said.

 

It sounds like you're saying you feared that now that T3Ed was released, it would become popular and no one would want to use Dark Mod. So you mean the future authors, not Dark Mod developers? I think I get it.

 

It seems that not many people are using T3Ed. Contest 7 was a bomb. The T3Ed forum is eerily quiet most of the time. The Dromed forum (The Editor's Guild) on the other hand still has daily activity, sometimes a lot.

 

Maybe a lot of Dromedders will eventually skip to Dark Mod once it's publically ready, sort of leapfrogging past TDS editor altogether. But they'll only do it if leaning is perfect! ;)

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I'm a bit confused, because that sort of sounds like what I said.

 

Sort of. :) For you the fear was that TDM would stop being developed. For us this was never really a question. The core team was always bent on continuing, so our fear was more that T3Ed would be so good, that nobody would really bother to look for TDM anymore. :)

 

It seems that not many people are using T3Ed. Contest 7 was a bomb. The T3Ed forum is eerily quiet most of the time. The Dromed forum (The Editor's Guild) on the other hand still has daily activity, sometimes a lot.

 

Yeah. After the initial joy subsided, the forum started to continuisly go down, while the DromEd forum is at a strong posting frequency all the time.

 

Maybe a lot of Dromedders will eventually skip to Dark Mod once it's publically ready, sort of leapfrogging past TDS editor altogether. But they'll only do it if leaning is perfect! ;)

 

That's what we hope for. :) The advantage is definitely there.

Gerhard

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Well I have stopped playing classic Thief FMs for the moment. I'm just quite bored of them. Bored of the engine and AI. Played it so much. I only play FMs for the exploration and architecture and individual stuff on each map (stories etc) but I don't like the majority of FM puzzles, making it quite hard to find an FM I like. I didn't like 7th Crystal for example.

 

Maybe if someone releases something amazing (No downloadable sequel to Gathering at the Inn yet...) I'll start again.

 

And as for TDS, I just can't stand the engine. It's so slow. It runs absolutely terribly on any computer it seems.

I like the AI, except for the fact you have to tweak it using the minimalist project to get any fun out of it.

I don't like the leaning. I don't like a lot of the textures and art resources.

 

So hopefully TDM will have better art resources (more like TII), better AI even than TDS, and a lovely well running engine.

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Urrm. Well it's not that much to ask of TDM seeing as they say they're doing great AI, the Doom3 engine was a much better engine than the crappy mangled one TDS used, and the fact they have already make some great resources judging by the screens.

They are right on track.

 

I say I am bored of TII... well I loaded up my gaming non net connected PC after that post to see if I had TDS installed, I was considering giving an FM a go, having never seen a TDS FM. But I didn't. So I loaded up TII, it had a smugglers FM, forget the name.

 

It was like returning to an old friend. So perfect. The rain, the fog, the brick, the puddles, the dirt, the dark, the noises.

 

TDS was sterile by comparison.

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The TDS forum was starting to slow down last year, but a turning point in my mind was when Krypt admitted that the engine was something of a fluke and the T3 devs themselves hated using it ... and from his and Randy's description of things, it was the main culprit behind most of the disappointing features and design-work of TDS, which just adds insult to injury. It just sort of officially confirmed everyone's experience that FM making on it is not only an uphill battle, but against the spirit of the original games even in the dev's minds. I'm happy that FMs are being made on it while TDM is in production, though, and with the minimalist additions I even hope they'll continue like T1 FMs come out on occassion ... adding spice to the mix (actually, better if they come out more often than T1 FMs, because the technology is more advanced). But, yeah, my chips are with TDM for the future.

 

By the way Komag, I was wondering when you'd finally register on these forums and start posting. What took you so long? :D Or maybe the right question is, what brought you here now?

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I've been following Dark Mod all along (somewhat), but had been really trying to support T3Ed and surrounding stuff. Thus, I hadn't played any T2 FMs for a VERY long time, until last week I fired up and played the whole T2X.

 

It was then that I again realized just how much better the movement and feel of classic Thief is over TDS, especially leaning, rope arrows, and water. I knew it all already, but it was a big reminder that just seemed to hit home harder this time.

 

So I came back to read up on Dark Mod some more, and I noticed the forums for the first time. After reading a bunch of threads and stuff, I decided it's time to climb aboard and really focus more on TDM at this point, since it's the last best hope for a bright Thief style FM future!

Edited by Komag
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Ah-ha, that would explain the T2 water contest and the leaning question ... like the T2 oldschool vibe hit you in a big way.

 

By the way, in case you haven't read or thought about it, you can start learning the ropes for Doom3 editing now from the sticky at the top of this page (or one of them, anyway) to a D3 editing forum. And they (TDM) have a position for beta-mapping where you can get your hands on the current tools early-on to start mapping, so they can get the perspective of out-of-the-loop mappers while developing. It might be useful for you if you plan on doing an "all the basics in one place" newbie-tut for TDM like you did for T2 and TDS (maybe not start it any time soon, but later on as release time nears). But I know the TDM guys are going to put out a set of their own tutorials when they release, and this may very well include this kind of tutorial. So I don't want to precipitate any turf war over it if they already have plans to do it. But it was just a thought.

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Hehe, most of your post is exactly what I email New Horizon about yesterday :)

 

Yeah, I'm going to try to do all those things. I messed around with Doom 3 Edit for a few days a couple years ago, but I'll have to start over.

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Well, apparently you've got the job, because you already have "beta mapper" in your profile. Congrats on joining the team.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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The TTLG thread on Randy's interview is also good (link), and has the benefit of an appearance by Randy himself to explain himself a little more.

Also, note that the second half of the interview just came out yesterday (link). It doesn't talk much about the Thief series, but some good discussion on the future of gaming, or at least the direction he'd like to see it go ... more philosophical.

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I don't remember how forward leaning worked in T2 exactly, but it was mostly to be able to watch down over railings and stuff yes?

 

Anyway, could you try to add backwards leaning? ^^; Check the image below and hopefully you'll get why I think it might be good. The example is a bit exaggerated.

 

backlean4zg.gif

 

FOV is added as an example in which angle backward-leaning might help in certain situations. :)

Edited by Denny
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