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My first map questions & work in progress

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#276 Judith

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 05:40 AM

Since I'm not English native, and I don't think I know TDM lore that well, I got one request: could anyone think of 1-3 "Builder wisdom" quotes, similar to the one I took from Thief above? Something around 40 words per quote. You will be properly credited as an author :)



#277 The Black Arrow

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 06:01 AM

I'm not somebody who gets surprised easily, but that there is amazing.

I have already seen quite the work made on old DirectX games where PBR was not possible, but this one is the top of the year.

 

The colours match everything so well, be it saturation or contrast. The brown wood goes well with the gray that goes well with the white off the lamp.

The artistic floor is to die for....Positively speaking, although that sounds too far nihilistic.

 

If only The Dark Mod engine was able to do POMs then the walls would look even better. But that is artistically speaking, realistically the walls being being POM'd would be unreal.

 

Since I'm not English native, and I don't think I know TDM lore that well, I got one request: could anyone think of 1-3 "Builder wisdom" quotes, similar to the one I took from Thief above? Something around 40 words per quote. You will be properly credited as an author :)

 

I had some basic but meaningful studies in the art of language, I even know some modern Middle English, I could give it a try. Would you prefer a PM or just post it here?



#278 Judith

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 06:18 AM

Thanks, I'm in the process of reworking some of that stuff, and I plan to release first version of that package soon, along with a small example corridor map.

 

It would be great if you could share the quotes here, so other mappers may use them as well. They don't have to be Middle English, but that's always a nice touch :)



#279 The Black Arrow

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 10:42 AM

Since The Dark Mod takes a lot of lore from Thief (don't forget they're similar, not identical) I decided to take a tiny bit of liberty and add "extra lore". Luckily, most of it is vague so it shouldn't break the TDM lore & spirit at all, unless you're a crazy conspiracy theorist I suppose.

 

I'll stamp them with a number, then put them in quotes in how it would be most optimal format, liberty can be taken of course as it's just a suggestion. I will also add a small description as to what it is meant to be, so if there are various pamphlets on various locations it would have a better, more fitting location.

 

1.

"Bury not your head

When dirt is poured on you

Bury not your heart

When the chance give dim

 

For the Master Builder

He does watch thee

And give thee

Ordeals of His Tasks"

- When all else fails, don't stop and keep on going, for this is a blessing and task given by the Builder who also took the same tasks.

 

2.

"When born are we

Do we not cry

for knowledge and power?

 

Do we not thorough nothing?

Yet do we not want all?

 

But this is not the path

For us to take

The Children of the Builder

We will prevail not by vice

But by true humility"

- Don't be spoiled and be humble for this is the Builder's true path.

 

3.

"Worry not upon the dirt

For the stone is which carve

Duly not upon the grass

For the roads are what pave

Tear not upon the rock

For ore is what it will forge"

- Modernization is important. While nature is not what the Builder seeks, it is nature that the Builder's Disciples improve, so very subtly thanking nature (dirt, grass, rock) they "modernize" it by replacing it with man-made materials (stone, roads, ore). (Extra note: by "dirt" it should be referred to the dirtwall, that's why I mention stones)

 

4.

"...And come have they,

the Plenty Thieves of Stone

Sin committed by theft

They were through by ours

 

May be they rest."

- Thieves get no compassion for stealing from the Builder, but only the Builder himself gives compassion.

("to through" is an actual old term, it means exactly the same as "to stab")

 

5.

"When you got Shears

You will cut

When you got Thongs

You will Forge

But when you got a Hammer...

You will Build!"

- From Apprentice to Master, you become more and more with the Builder, making creations worthy of his image.

 

6.

"You will keep Yourself

even if you are Fire!

You will keep Them

even if you are Sin!

You will keep Him

Even if you are Death!"

- You are the Disciple of the Builder and you keep him like a Fire does to keep warm. Even if you're not part of the faction, you are anyway. And be the Builder as he is, even Death cannot kill him.

 

7. (Inspired by Theodore Roosevelt's "The Man in the Arena" quote)

"It is not the pagan who yields;

not the lazy who begs

or the savage who wrecks

 

Ours is the belonging,

who face our trials

by Fire & Forge

who strive for our deeds

by Will & Work

 

The Almighty Lord Builder

May he take Pity

Yon them, not us

Brothers

 

In the end

We will Triumph

For the Master Builder!"

- (Inspired by Theodore Roosevelt's "The Man in the Arena" quote) This seems to be a bit too long, you could separate in two from "The Almighty Lord Builder". The idea is that even if a Builder has committed a failure despite his best, he is still the one who faced it and took it with pride instead of absolute shame, somebody who never took the true danger are the ones who deserve the timid cold shame.

 

Hopefully some, if not all, of these are worth it somewhere here and there. And most hopefully they don't "break the lore/spirit" :)


Edited by The Black Arrow, 15 February 2019 - 06:24 AM.

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#280 Judith

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:14 AM

That's way more than I hoped for, thank you! I like 1 and 3 the most, as they're super referential to mapping itself, and to what I'm trying to do in particular. Great work!



#281 Springheel

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:40 AM

Just a note that "Master Builder" is the most common name of God in the setting, not just "the Builder", which could be any member of the faith.

 

http://wiki.thedarkm...The_Name_of_God


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#282 The Black Arrow

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:57 AM

Just a note that "Master Builder" is the most common name of God in the setting, not just "the Builder", which could be any member of the faith.

 

http://wiki.thedarkm...The_Name_of_God

 

Thanks, I only needed to change the 1st paragraph though, but it does give more charm to it.

 

I like 1 and 3 the most, as they're super referential to mapping itself

 

The Almighty Lord Builder bless thee ;)


Edited by The Black Arrow, 14 February 2019 - 11:58 AM.


#283 Judith

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 05:56 PM

obraz.png

 

This is just a test shot, I'll put these in the example room shipped with the package. Thanks again!


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#284 OrbWeaver

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:40 AM

Sorry to nitpick, but since you did specifically request input from a native English speaker, I'll point out that a couple of those phrases are ungrammatical (even taking into account the deliberately archaic language used in Builder quotes).

 

"When the chance give dim"

I'm guessing the intended meaning is something like "When the future seems hopeless", but as written it doesn't really make sense. A chance might seem or appear or look dim, but it cannot "give" dim because dim is not a noun.

 

"He does watch thee and give the ordeals of his task"

The original version by Black Arrow is more correct: "ordeals of his tasks".

 

"The stone is which carve"

"The roads are what pave"

These are not grammatical as written. You might use something like "The stone is what it will yield" and "The roads are what it will uphold/support" as alternatives (you can of course substitute other nouns/verbs into these templates).

 

"And came have they the plenty thieves of stone"

"Have" and "came" don't work together. You could use "And came they, the many/plenty thieves of stone" or "And come have they, the many/plenty thieves of stone", depending on whether you want to imply that the thieves have come and are still here, or they came a long time ago and went away.

 

"They were through by ours"

"May be the rest"

I can't suggest alternatives to these because I can't actually discern the intended meaning.


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#285 Judith

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 05:20 AM

"When the chance give dim"

I'm guessing the intended meaning is something like "When the future seems hopeless", but as written it doesn't really make sense. A chance might seem or appear or look dim, but it cannot "give" dim because dim is not a noun.

 

So "When the chance look dim" will be good enough?
 

 

"He does watch thee and give the ordeals of his task"

The original version by Black Arrow is more correct: "ordeals of his tasks".

 

That's actually a typo on my end, sorry.
 

 

"And came have they the plenty thieves of stone"

"Have" and "came" don't work together. You could use "And came they, the many/plenty thieves of stone" or "And come have they, the many/plenty thieves of stone", depending on whether you want to imply that the thieves have come and are still here, or they came a long time ago and went away.

 

Ok, this will be corrected. Not sure about other examples, but I'll wait until the final verdict, as this is not only a matter of typing the text, but also making a separate normalmap etc.



#286 Boiler's_hiss

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 05:44 AM

It might not be a thought through suggestion, but would replacing WW and U with V be a good approach? Just like here.

Spoiler

Edited by Boiler's_hiss, 15 February 2019 - 05:46 AM.


#287 The Black Arrow

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 06:11 AM

There is some ugly "padding" visible on some paragraphs, most obvious on "chance give dim".

I was to make a suggestion until this though:

 

*snip*

 

"When the chance sees dim" would be better then, although I admit I'm not exactly too sure if you can consider "chance" a name(noun) itself. "seen" would be better, as it implies that it is seen to be impossible, or it was seen to be impossible, both confirming it's not.

 

Maybe "The stone is which carves" and "The roads are what paved" will do better? Again, I'm considering inanimate-but-visible objects as nouns here.

It's not that the other suggestions are bad, but I think being as short as possible is best, I like to consider the Builders (and in part Hammerites) are slightly laconic with their 'inspirational' phrases.

 

Yes, "And come have they, the many/plenty thieves of stone" is a way better change, just need to fit it in, something like...

"And come have they,

the plenty Thieves of Stone"

This may give those 'paddings' I mentioned though, so:

"And come have they,

The plenty Thieves

of Stone"

 

"They were through by ours" is supposed to mean "They were (stabbed) by our (swords)", "to through" is a rare archaic way of saying "to stab", "May be they rest" was a mistake ('typo' is it called?), sorry. What that one refers is that the Thieves may rest, in peace or not, because it is the Master Builder's judgement for them to rest in peace or not, not the Builders'.

I know it's rare to see a Builder use a sword, but it's not impossible. I'm sure some priests and acolytes use daggers/swords themselves before getting to use a hammer. After all, the hammer is symbolic for the Builders, not just practical, it's a status.

 

Back to the padding, I think it's best to give more margin to the text, at the very least on "chance give dim".

By simply changing the order so it's:

"chance give

dim"

will do just fine I'm sure.

 

Same can be attempted at "For the stone is" and "For ore is what", although these are not as bad as the one I previously mentioned.

"For the stone

is which carve"

"For ore is

what will forge" (You can omit "it" here, "what" already refers to "ore"...Or at least I'm very sure of it, OrbWeaver can confirm if needed)

 

P.S. I have added another paragraph, check out the post.


Edited by The Black Arrow, 15 February 2019 - 06:24 AM.


#288 OrbWeaver

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 08:27 AM

So "When the chance look dim" will be good enough?

 
It is reasonably grammatical I think — obviously in modern English we would say "When the chance looks dim" but "look" is probably OK when we're going for a deliberately archaic tone.
 

"When the chance sees dim" would be better then, although I admit I'm not exactly too sure if you can consider "chance" a name(noun) itself. "seen" would be better, as it implies that it is seen to be impossible, or it was seen to be impossible, both confirming it's not.

 
"Sees dim" is grammatical but not the intended meaning; it would imply that the chance is the thing doing the seeing, rather than the thing being seen.
 
"Seen dim" only makes sense if you assume that the word "is" has been omitted: "When the chance [is] seen [to be] dim". To me this sounds decidedly odd, and I suspect most English speakers would be confused by it, and wonder if it was a typo or a mistranslation of something else.
 

Maybe "The stone is which carves" and "The roads are what paved" will do better? Again, I'm considering inanimate-but-visible objects as nouns here.

 
"Which" cannot be used in that way; unlike "what", it is not a placeholder for another noun. For example, while you can say "A Big Mac is what I want to eat", you cannot say "A Big Mac is which I want to eat".
 
Using "what" in both cases is grammatically correct but again, the meaning is reversed. "The stone is what carves" implies that the stone is the thing holding the hammer and chisel, not the thing being carved by a human Builder. Likewise with "The roads are what pave(s)"; the roads are not doing any paving themselves, it is the roads which are paved by a human. This is an example of confusion between the active voice and passive voice.
 

"They were through by ours" is supposed to mean "They were (stabbed) by our (swords)", "to through" is a rare archaic way of saying "to stab",

 
Ah OK. Most English speakers would never interpret "through" as a verb however, particularly in this context. You might use something like "They were slain by ours" or "They were laid to rest by ours", or however you want to express it.
 

"May be they rest" was a mistake ('typo' is it called?), sorry. What that one refers is that the Thieves may rest, in peace or not, because it is the Master Builder's judgement for them to rest in peace or not, not the Builders'.

 
I think in this case you want "May they rest", without the extra "be", but note that "may" in this context is a wish, not a possibility. The statement is equivalent to "I hope that they do rest".
 

"For ore is
what will forge" (You can omit "it" here, "what" already refers to "ore"...Or at least I'm very sure of it, OrbWeaver can confirm if needed)


Omitting "it" is fine, but you do need to be careful about active vs passive, because it completely changes the meaning. The ore is what will be forged (by a human), not what will forge (something else).



#289 Springheel

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:40 AM

Since they're still under discussion, it might be worth converting some of the words and grammar to the more archaic English Builders typically use.  The more "King James" it sounds, the better.

 

 

"Bury not thy head

When calamity doth fall upon thee.

Bury not thy heart

When the flame is hidden from thee.

 

For the iron rod which doth not bend,

And the stone that doth not break

To them shalt be given dominion over all things;

For upon these shalt the Master Builder build His church.”


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#290 Obsttorte

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 12:21 PM

It might not be a thought through suggestion, but would replacing WW and U with V be a good approach? Just like here.

Spoiler

This is something I only know from Latin (as in the image) or from Runes. A short look at wikipedia implies that Old English used Runes, but not an U or V, and Middle English (which is probably more what the above quotes are refering to) seems to have had an U. I am neither a native speaker nor an expert, though. But I could imagine that someone who is actually familiar with older forms of English may consider it odd if something like this is done although it wasn't typical.

 

In additionit would make those quotes even more harder to understand for non-english players as they already are. I mean, they sound nice, but it is really hard to get what they mean.


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#291 OrbWeaver

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 12:29 PM

The Builder quotes are in the style of Early Modern English i.e. the language of Shakespeare and certain translations of the Bible. Middle English was actually older than that (10th to 15th century) and would probably be unintelligible to modern speakers.

 

In any case, you're right: the merging of U and V was very much a Latin thing. I don't think it would be appropriate in this case.


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#292 VanishedOne

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 08:20 PM

It's not so much that they were merged, it's that they hadn't fully diverged. You could make a historical case for using them in English based on https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/U#History but I agree with Obsttorte that it's the sort of thing that might trip up readers. (Also I don't know offhand whether their history in engraving neatly matches their history in printing or handwriting.)

 

 

Since they're still under discussion, it might be worth converting some of the words and grammar to the more archaic English Builders typically use.  The more "King James" it sounds, the better.

 

 

"Bury not thy head

When calamity doth fall upon thee.

Bury not thy heart

When the flame is hidden from thee.

 

For the iron rod which doth not bend,

And the stone that doth not break

To them shalt be given dominion over all things;

For upon these shalt the Master Builder build His church.”

 

I like this rendering, but isn't 'shalt' second person?


Edited by VanishedOne, 15 February 2019 - 08:23 PM.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

- louder scream when you're dying


#293 Springheel

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 08:43 PM

 

 

 

I like this rendering, but isn't 'shalt' second person?

 

You're right, good catch.


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