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Does this mean you will revert frob and long-frob for bodies like snatcher and myself have asked for? Or what do you mean by "a body like that"?

I would still argue that you use semantics to swap the physics and special actions for bodies, but I can live with that :)!

I implemented this for bodies. It's working well. Thank you for the suggestion!

Looking at the code, the originals were "pm_mantle_pull 750" and "pm_mantle_pullFast 450". The new "pm_mantle_pull" value is "400". A "pm_mantle_pullFast" value of "450" would be slower than regular pull, not faster. With both being set to "400", they are at least similar. Other than that, it's subjective and the feedback from playtesters was positive. Also, referenced internally here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22256-movementcontrols-settings-in-main-menu/&do=findComment&comment=489158

That sort of tone doesn't fly in our forums.

There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?

I would use this massive list for any fan missions, it includes campaigns too: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148090 There are a lot of Fan Missions for the picking, I myself go for the lesser known ones and the short variety, because sometimes they hide a gem or two. Just like jaxa, I'm a bit outdated after the temporal retirement, but I do remember some amazing campaigns like "The Black Frog". If you intend to play The Black Frog, you should play the first two of the L'Arsene series missions, it's how I did it myself. Also, yes, L'Arsene are a fantastic series. The first mission of L'Arsene is a "rough draft", author was a bit new to Thief level making, but still great either way, after the 3rd you will see how his skill increased by a massive amount.

Unfortunately, TDM forum deletes the separator between the numbers. So I have to guess where one number ends and the next starts Also, user can rename screenshot manually, or push it through something that would rename it automatically. Thenwe won't see coordinates on screenshot address on forums.

tdm_show_viewpos cvar and screenshot_viewpos command: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22310-212-viewpos-on-player-hud-and-screenshots/

Ambient atmospheres are in my opinion one of the best parts of the Dark Mod experience, not just for getting a mission to have the right feel but also for inspiration and to have them playing in the background when creating maps. The more the merrier, so here's a thread to collect all the links to ambient music and environmental sounds that could have a spot in TDM's setting. Ambients from the TDM forums Gast's Eerie Lullabies Magnanimous Merry's Miscellanea Orbweaver's Dark Ambients Spadey's Ambients Radioteque's Ambients Kyyrma's Composing Ambient Tracks for Dummies - Kyyrma shows how ambient soundtracks can be made from a set of sounds. Also contains some of his finished ambients. Request for more interior sounds - this thread is a very productive community session where members came up with a large and good selection of new ambients. Uncle Peti's Sound Den Dragofer's Ambients - post #6 in this thread SeriousToni's Ambients - posts #8, 12, 15 and 19 in this thread Ambients from the TTLG forums Custom resources list Gigagooga's Ambients 1 - possibly the largest pack of ambient musics and nature sounds, all of them high quality. Gigagooga's Ambients 2 - this pack puts more weight on shorter swells/hits/pads to be layered on top of a subtle ambient. Gigagooga's Ambients 3 Yandros' ambient loop Sephy's Ambients - a large collection of ambient pieces, including many shorter ones which will be valuable for anyone wanting to try a layered ambience approach like in the Thief OMs and Full Moon Fever. Internet databases www.freesound.org - some of the better composers in my opinion are ERH and BrandonNyte. www.purple-planet.com - a large selection of all kinds of ambient and musical soundtracks to be used freely. www.darkwinter.com - an internet label that publishes a lot of dark ambient music under a Creative Commons license. www.endlessascent.com - sister website of Darkwinter for non-dark ambients. Youtube Asatru Dark - also has very nice reference images for outdoor stone memorials, statue arrangements etc. #4 Void by Raffaele du Marteau & #6 Dreaming of Nowhere by Raffaele du Marteau - possibly the most forlorn pieces I've found on the internet. Alacazam - a prolific Creative Commons ambients composer . Cryo Chamber - for-profit label for dark ambient music with a large selection on offer. Going by their Youtube comments they're fine with people using their soundtracks for games etc., although you'd probably need to buy the soundtracks first. Dark Ambient Mixed Session - as much ambient as something to have in the background while mapping.

Relax @Näkki, it's great to hear you enjoyed the game. My personal expectations were just a bit different when I read the Steam page, although the various trailers should have been a warning that stealth maybe wasn't the biggest priority of the devs. From the Steam page: "Weird west legends meet eldritch horror in BLOOD WEST, an immersive stealth FPS." Also "Blood West is a stealth FPS inspired by the genre classics such as the Thief series (whose fans will be happy to hear the voice of Stephen Russell, the actor voicing the master-thief Garrett, returning here as the protagonist), S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games, or - from the contemporary catalog - Hunt: Showdown. The gameplay rewards the careful approach: scouting the area, stalking your enemies, and striking from the shadows. Can you figure out a way to clear a fort full of ghouls and monsters without raising an alarm?" From my personal experience I think the game is predominantly Hunt: Showdown, a bit of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and a very small portion Thief. Stealth is very unforgiving and makes it almost impossible early game when there are various enemies around, but hey maybe I just suck at it. I don't see Deus Ex in it, unless the skill leveling is the Deus Ex part for you and then I have to disagree with you, as that seems like the trait system in Hunt: Showdown. Edit: What I also understood from the Steam forums is that the original VA was dropped close before the release of the full version and replaced by Russell with no real explanation from the devs why this was done.

DarkRadiant 3.8.0 is ready for download. What's new: Feature: Support new frob-related material keywords Improvement: Mission selection list in Game setup is not alphabetically sorted Improvement: Better distinction between inherited and regular spawnargs Improvement: Silence sound shader button Improvement: Add Reload Definitions button to Model Chooser Fixed: Model Selector widgets are cut off and flicker constantly on Linux Fixed: DarkRadiant will not start without Dark Mod plugins Fixed: GenericEntityNode not calculating the direction correctly with "editor_rotatable" Fixed: RenderableArrow not drawing the tip correctly for arbitrary rotations Fixed: Light Inspector crashes on Linux Fixed: Models glitch out when filtering then showing them Fixed: Skin Editor: models not centered well in preview Fixed: "Copy Resource Path" includes top level folders Fixed: Skin Editor: internal test skins are shown if Material Editor was open previously Fixed: Changing Game/Project doesn't update loaded assets correctly Fixed: Model Chooser: initially hidden materials aren't revealed when enabling them Fixed: Choosing AI entity class 'atdm:townsfolk_commoner_update' causes crash Fixed: Sporadic assertion failure on shutdown due to LocalBitmapArtProvider destruction Fixed: Prefab Selector spams infinite error dialogs on Linux Windows and Mac Downloads are available on Github: https://github.com/codereader/DarkRadiant/releases/tag/3.8.0 and of course linked from the website https://www.darkradiant.net Thanks to all the awesome people who keep using DarkRadiant to create Fan Missions - they are the main reason for me to keep going. Please report any bugs or feature requests here in these forums, following these guidelines: Bugs (including steps for reproduction) can go directly on the tracker. When unsure about a bug/issue, feel free to ask. If you run into a crash, please record a crashdump: Crashdump Instructions Feature requests should be suggested (and possibly discussed) here in these forums before they may be added to the tracker. The list of changes can be found on the our bugtracker changelog. Keep on mapping!

Here is an alternative way to simplify extinguishing candles and shouldering bodies. Player can double-press / double-click frob button to do a mixed frob + use action. The test build is available in tdm_installer as "test-frob-stgatilov". Attached the source code patch too: FrobUse_By_DoubleClick.patch The original TDM controls are left unchanged. The difference starts only when double-click is registered (which unfortunately can happen accidentally). Also, the double-click action always continues the single-click action. So when you grab a body/candle, the single-click action happens immediately: there is no need to delay it. The maximum time between double-clicks is controlled by cvar in_doubleClickDelay, default is 200 ms. In principle, you can set it to zero to return to the old behavior: then double-clicks won't be registered. Here is how it works internally. There is an utility class which tracks held buttons (which are called "impulses" --- Doom 3 has too few "buttons"). I have extended it to also register double-click. So whenever player clicks frob and this is registered as double-click, then: If there is nothing grabbed, then do ordinary "frob" to grab item (this allows to double-click on already grabbed item). If there is nothing grabbed now, then fall back to normal single-click frob (this happens for ungrabable stuff like doors). If there is something grabbed, then "use" it (that's the main part: it shoulders/extinguished/eats the thing). Unless we have a body shouldered, release currently grabbed item (we want to ungrab extinguished candle). And there is also a special case: If there is something equipped at the moment of double-click, the just "use" it instead of anything else (this allows to unshoulder body by double-click).

After testing I think I like daft mugis version better. Right mouse double clicking works, but doesn't feel nice especially after a period of play. The only big issue I have with daft muggies version is the long press moving body doesn't toggle. This makes moving bodies a shore.

Regardless of what is used in the end, I think we should move auto-loot to that too for everything to be consistent. Right now auto-loot is long-frob, bodies and lights are double-frob and consumables are frob+use! Rather an unintuitive mess.

Personally, for this kind of game, double-clicking and double-tapping are the kind of things that instantly get a sour taste in my mouth as soon as I hear it, because I already know from experience that it not reliable enough and it's more prone to human error. You said it yourself: It may also happen accidentally if your fingers twitch, or if your mouse misregisters an extra click, or when you think you didn't hit the target and immediately click again, but it so happens that you did hit the target the first time; or when you're hasting to perform the same task multiples times in quick succession (not very relevant here, but I couldn't count how many times I died in minecraft tapping keys to adjust my position and accidentally double-tapping forward and sprinting off a cliff). Also, given that we're talking about the right mouse button, I'm feeling even less inclined. I can double-right-click, but it doesn't feel very comfortable. It's really not something I'm used to, so it requires a degree of effort (and I suppose it will get my hand tired, as @Wellingtoncrabmentioned). Yup. I like ghosting. To be fair, I play with my own lax rules, but I still feel bothered if I have to tamper with the natural order of things, if I think it's unnecessary or that I shouldn't be forced to. It might seem petty, but it's part of what makes the challenge interesting. You never know, the candle owner might have noticed before bed that the candle was about an inch away from a spec of dust, and in the morning he might realize that that distance has changed. So, from a ghosting perspective, when you tamper with things without needing to, you've introduced a point of failure. If the game requires it, that's another story -- it turns into "I can't work around it, so I have to bend the rules because of it". But as far as I'm concerned it still bothers me and kind of ruins the challenge. For example, TDM has been leaving a really sour taste in my mouth when it comes to dropping keys, because lots of missions don't allow it (because unfortunately they're not droppable by default in DR, and for no good reason, afaik). After Snatcher's post about the delay interfering with manipulating bodies, I was growing tempted to agree with reversing it, but then I realized both ways have issues of the same kind. If you can click to shoulder, then you can't click to drag body -- you always have to hold button, which is not great if you're dragging a body a long distance. If you can click to drag a body, then you can't hold to drag a body. You always have to click to drag and then click to release, which is also not great when you're dragging limbs for a pose or something. (I suppose this might be even more annoying than the other.) Maybe I should posting this in that thread.

I was thinking about the concern @snatchermentioned about this making the ability to manipulate bodies around prohibitively tedious. I think there a bit of truth to that. I don't think it's that bad: I just manipulated a body around with not much hassle. But I can see how the delay might end up feeling like a stone in your shoe, for someone who does this often. But as I was testing this, trying to manipulate a guard around, I noticed that most often when I want to manipulate, I have a tendency to want to not just click and hold, but to also drag the mouse (or start walking). And that's where the delay interferes a bit. So I was thinking, maybe the implementation could also detect mouse dragging after the initial click, and immediately enter manipulation mode when it detects it? (Maybe it would be wise to still have a slight threshold for this? Not all mice and hands are exactly steady when clicking, so I suppose there might be a slight unintentional movement. I suppose this would have to be better thought about and tested.) And maybe the same could be said about detecting walking right after the initial click.

I played both test versions with "The Bakery Job" and as everybody could guess, I like stgatilov's version better because it is consistent. I don't see why daft's version should be more intuitive, especially as shouldering bodies and extinguishing lights are working in opposite ways. Still I believe that without a tutorial or key binding hint, no new players will discover either version on their own as double-frob and long-frob are not used elsewhere. stgatilov, is it possible to make both double-frob and long-frob work in your version? Also to really make this consistent, could you add eating food on double frob too, please?

So, if I understand you, no Thief Gold FM does sound and text notifications of completed objectives? The missions in The Black Parade surely did. I'm completely confused now. I was sure that original Thief Gold had those objective complete notifications (at least the sound). Reading this thread suggests otherwise though: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132977

This is most excellent news, @Daft Mugi! Thanks for your commitment and for your work. Now, I haven't tested anything nor checked the code but I guess you applied similar limitations than when shouldering bodies. Apologies in advance if this is not the case. At the risk of sounding ungrateful I will say something the same: I already suggested somewhere else that it would be ideal if you include in your workflow going forward a step to see if parts of the code you work on can be made script-friendly. I have seen scripts making use of functionality - previously made available by others - in the most peculiar ways. I would say, from the little experience I have, that even the most irrelevant variable or function can make a difference when realizing that mad idea in a map or as a mod. Having said that and once again: thank you very much for the efforts and for sharing the results with us.

True, but that's more ambitious than I was going for. All I wanted to know was how effective it would be having a message saying "You can drag bodies or shoulder them" when you knock the guy out. My feeling is a handful of short notes close by are better than a lengthy book readable in another room. The little snippet I made really is just a re-make of two rooms in the current training mission.

On the off chance this is a case of ignorance and not stubbornness... Imagine if every object in the game only had one interaction mode. What would you want that interaction to be? For candles and lanterns would you rather be able to put them out or pick them up? For bodies would you rather be able to shoulder them or drag them around by their limbs? Now imagine for whatever you decided, the game only let you do the other thing. For new players who don't realize TDM supports multiple interaction modes, that is how the game feels right now. The essence of the proposal is that whatever interaction is the most indispensable--the "primary action"--that should be mapped to the default short frob that everyone is familiar with. The less important "secondary" action gets mapped to the new long frob, which we hope will be more discoverable than the use-while-frobbing combo. We might not all agree yet which actions make the most sense as the primary vs the secondary, or what should happen in all of the obscure edge cases, but I hope we at least have a consensus that this idea in principle is a worth deploying as an accessibility concession.

Again, this could be fixed by reversing short frob and long frob for bodies. Is it really that much of a problem to hold frob 200 ms longer to shoulder a body?

At the risk of derailing the conversation, here's something I threw together today. It's a re-imagining of a tiny part of the training mission, specifically the hallway where you use moss arrows to sneak up on a Builder guard and then hide his body in an upstairs storeroom. I agree with @ChronA that the training mission is only competent, not exceptional, and as a tool for attracting new players to TDM it doesn't really get the job done. One problem is that the TDM universe doesn't really have anything like the Keepers, so it's difficult to reproduce a cool training mission like A Keeper's Training. The changes I made for this tiny snippet is that the instructions are nearby, not hidden in a static book in another room. The crucial information regarding shouldering v dragging is communicated via a GUI immediately after you KO the Builder guard. @Wellingtoncrab, if you'd seen this popup on your play of the training mission would it have taken a happy accident to rediscover how to shoulder bodies later? I also added volumetric lights, EAX, and secrets because I figure if the training mission were ever to be revamped it should show off all the coolest new features :] (if you look around a bit you'll also see a shout-out to T1 architecture. because I like it, and because I think paying respects to the original is decent) ztraining.pk4

This is another point which been gone over again and again in the thread and doesn’t need more elaboration. Two additional users just pointed out that frobbing is a context sensitive action that is already not “consistent”. There are lots of moveable objects for example that already don’t work like you are describing. Inventory items like keys are also moveables. The primary action is to acquire them. If you wish to interact with them as you would another moveable you must drop them first at which point they appear in front of the player as other physics objects do. No one complains about this not being consistent, as it would be tedious and potentially confusing to need two key presses to acquire most moveable inventory items, many of which are required to progress in the game, just like it is tedious and potentially confusing to do this with bodies. It is TDM which is not consistent with games like Thief TDP/2/3, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Dishonored, etc. Maybe this is in part why it is confusing, as there is a good chance people coming to TDM will have some familiarity with those games. Thanks for your understanding.