What effect on TDM will a level editor have if one is released with Thief 4?

[Sir Taffsalot]

Surely if one isn't released this could bring in a new wave of people who enjoyed playing Thief 4 (yeah it's just Thief but I'm not calling it that) and weant more Thief like levels to play. But what if one is released? Does this take away any encentive for people to learn how to use DR? I assume that DR will be easier as it doesn't require any knowledge of modeling and Thief 4 will as with most modern games now. Although if an editor is released I assume that a bunch of models from the actual game will be packaged with it so a faily sized level could still be made with basic mapping knowledge.

 

What would the effects on TDM be if a T4 Editor is released?

[zergrush]

TDM will soon be a free, standalone game, whereas Thief 4 will be a commercial one. Regarding the old Thief Community, I think most will prefer mapping for TDM also due to their skepticism towards Thief 4 gameplay, with most Thief 4 modders and mappers probably being people newer to the community.

 

All in all, I'd say TDM will neither win or lose with Thief 4.

[demagogue]

I find it improbable, but stranger things have happened.

If the editor is released, then it will bring in a new influx of people, and I think FM mapping will get split into two niches by the gameplay. TDM is contemporary minimalist. T4 is contemporary extravagant, and a bit gamey; the mappers will be doing things like laying down lean-zones, light-zones, swoop-zones, beam-lock & parkour zones, etc... which would personally be disheartening to me just on principle. But yeah, I think there'd be those two niches, and they'd have their own tracks like T2 & TDM mapping do now... That is to say, I don't see it extinguishing T2 or TDM mapping.

 

Generalizing this discussion, the only FM scenes that basically did get extinguished were T:G and TDS. T:G is understandable because everything you can do in T1 dromed you can do in T2 dromed better, so there's no real niche for it except a few die-hard nostolgists. TDS got extinguished pretty much on its own, since the editor was such a pain to work with... There was a little niche there, and a few still try, but it doesn't like mappers. It dwindled down even without TDM's help. Now TDM has a lovely editor in DR, and a definite niche in keeping T2's more minimal style... Our pool of mappers is still a bit small, but the niche is strong so I still see it churning along. When it goes standalone & following T4, like zerg said, it should get a boost too.

 

And as for T4, if an editor does come, it really depends on whether it can carve a niche for itself, and how. There should always be mappers for it in the same way there are still TDS mappers. I imagine they're going to be younger & more ok with the consolisms, so a bit different niche than TDM.

[Melan]

I just do not think it likely that a Thief 4 editor will be released due to publisher policy and/or middleware-related issues. That's the starting point.

 

But hypothetically, there is still the issue that mapping is more time-consuming and involved in modern engines (unless you are just rearranging smaller pieces). You could theoretically create purely model-based levels for TDM, and they would look grand... but they aren't exactly being released at a steady rate. Although if the game editor ships with sufficient smaller terrain components, we could see a "beginner tier" editing scene based on rearranging the existing pieces... and advanced users going for full customisation.

 

Actually, TDM itself could use a large, centrally managed, and well-advertised func_static database.

[Sotha]

Actually, TDM itself could use a large, centrally managed, and well-advertised func_static database.

 

Hm.. Any member of the community could scour the existing maps for func_static pieces (vault modules, building facades, etc) and place them all in a category arranged .map files, which could be stored in the wiki.

 

More to the topic: I think TDM will gain new players and possibly mappers from T4. If successful, T4 may spark a new interest towards the sneaking genre like DX:HR. However, we will receive complaints from these new players, judging from the T4 discussion thread: people will cry why is everything so difficult and the AI are all over them and they cannot beat more than 1 AI in a combat situation, and why don't we have Special Moves, etc etc.

[zergrush]

However, we will receive complaints from these new players, judging from the T4 discussion thread: people will cry why is everything so difficult and the AI are all over them and they cannot beat more than 1 AI in a combat situation, and why don't we have Special Moves, etc etc.

 

We should also create a special dubstep soundtrack just for them.

Edited April 9, 2013 by zergrush

[Sir Taffsalot]

However, we will receive complaints from these new players, judging from the T4 discussion thread: people will cry why is everything so difficult and the AI are all over them and they cannot beat more than 1 AI in a combat situation, and why don't we have Special Moves, etc etc.

 

It's a pity we are going standalone. Someone could give the Doom 3 chainsaw a steampunk make over and get it to work in TDM.

 

Getting Lady Lockheart's valueble ruby is going to be difficult as it is attached to a chain around her neck that is weilded permanantly shut. Word on the street however is that The Inventors Guild has a new invention that I might find usefull.

[demagogue]

Actually, TDM itself could use a large, centrally managed, and well-advertised func_static database.

 

This is the same punchline I came to in the TTLG thread on this. If nothing else for TDM comes out of the wake of T4, I hope it impresses on people the value of good func_statics and it builds some momentum to build a big library of nice looking models for TDM, architectural and objects.

 

Also hopefully mappers get more ready to use modeling programs. I remember us talking about this back in 2010. But when we actually see what it's capable of, people will get inspired because it's fun to build things that look that nice.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Once my campaign is finished, hopefully by the end of the year, I'll be more than happy to donate all of my func_static building facades for people to use. I already have more than 20 that are complete.

[demagogue]

BTW, I was chatting with Digi about the pipeline for Dishonored, and he said the mappers (he was one of them) usually plotted out the kind of func_statics they needed for architecture, and then would commission it from modelers to make them.

 

I was thinking we have some people here that enjoy modeling more than mapping.Maybe we could have something like this going, where people post requests in the I Want to Help forum.

 

I'm talking about well after we go Standalone, though. Right now we need everybody focused on that goal before anything. But just for future reference.

[lost_soul]

We barely got an editor for T3, and that was about a decade ago. These days, mainstream games don't come with editors anymore so they can charge for DLC.

 

Even if there *is* an editor for T4, people will still be limited to game design mechanics that were implemented in the game initially. Think: regenerating health, no support for ropes, swimmable water, whatever.

 

With TDM, people can change whatever gameplay mechanic however they want.

[Springheel]

I would eat my hat if T4 was released with a public editor, let alone one that was easy to use.

[lost_soul]

Yes, that sort of thing just isn't "in" anymore. Back around the turn of the century, craploads of games were coming with editors. Even more editors and SDKs were released for games post-initial release.

Edited April 9, 2013 by lost_soul

[Obsttorte]

I don't see that if that happens and if it has an effect on TDM, it would be a negative one.

 

TDM takes the good things in classic thief gameplay and improved it here and there.

 

Thief or thief4 or thi4f or thief nukem or what ever it is called now seems to take the things mentioned and just throw them away, replacing them by something fans of the series don't want and non-fans don't need (they just don't know).

 

I guess the chance of anyone switching from thief 2 or TDM to thief 4 mapping-wise is almost zero, as this would require thief4 to be the better TDM (or in other words be better then TDM or thief 2 gameplay-wise).

[demagogue]

A few would probably try it out of curiosity, but I imagine most people interested would be people playing T4 first in the series.

 

Since it is so improbable -- what we should be talking about is the best way to leverage interest in T4 into getting people into playing TDM FMs, and then on to mapping for TDM. I have to imagine a lot of them will find their way to TTLG, a good number will discover FMs, probably most of them will be turned-off by the paleographics of T2 (unfairly but predictable), and there's not enough of TDS FMs to get into. But then they'll see this other thing over here, TDM, that's on a more modern engine and has stealth gameplay, and some may make the connection to want to map for it.

 

We ought to think of ways to make that chain of events easier for new fans to make maybe...

Aside from the boost from going standalone & FM releases, I think that boils down to we really need to have a presence in a lot of the threads and discussions going on for T4. Then people posting in those know we're around. We don't have to wait for fans to stumble into us. We can go out to them too.

[zergrush]

A few would probably try it out of curiosity, but I imagine most people interested would be people playing T4 first in the series.

 

Since it is so improbable -- what we should be talking about is the best way to leverage interest in T4 into getting people into playing TDM FMs, and then on to mapping for TDM. I have to imagine a lot of them will find their way to TTLG, a good number will discover FMs, probably most of them will be turned-off by the paleographics of T2 (unfairly but predictable), and there's not enough of TDS FMs to get into. But then they'll see this other thing over here, TDM, that's on a more modern engine and has stealth gameplay, and some may make the connection to want to map for it.

 

We ought to think of ways to make that chain of events easier for new fans to make maybe...

Aside from the boost from going standalone & FM releases, I think that boils down to we really need to have a presence in a lot of the threads and discussions going on for T4. Then people posting in those know we're around. We don't have to wait for fans to stumble into us. We can go out to them too.

 

One could try getting TDM on Steam Greenlight, Desura, or maybe even GoG.

[demagogue]

Well Steam does have a place for non-commercial games. I don't know about Desura or GoG.

If the IP stuff clears & they're okay with it, then it's another outlet to popularize us, sure.

[Springheel]

Yes, it's really just a matter of exposure. I've seen posts lately around the web beginning with, "I didn't know about this mod" or "I heard about it a long time ago but". We tend to assume we're easy to find, but not necessarily so. Heck, some people on TTLG were pleasantly shocked recently to hear that we were going standalone--something I thought everyone knew by now.

 

The buzz about Thief 4 is definitely good for us. It's created a renewed interest in stealth gaming. And lots of people coming to Thief through Thief 4 will have less interest in Thief canon (since a lot of it seems to different anyway). So they'll be less put out by the "setting" differences in TDM (mechanical arrows vs crystal, no Garrett, no mechanists, etc).

 

I've actually wondered what affect Thief4 will have on the purists who don't like TDM because it doesn't have Garrett, or the Trickster, or Hammerites, or the rest of the IP. Now that Thief 4 won't have those things either (Garrett in name only), might that soften them up enough to try TDM? In fact, might TDM wind up being more "Thieflike" than the new "Thief"?

[zergrush]

Well Steam does have a place for non-commercial games. I don't know about Desura or GoG.

If the IP stuff clears & they're okay with it, then it's another outlet to popularize us, sure.

 

Getting non-commercial games on Desura is a lot easier than on Steam from what I was told. GoG also has some freeware games (Beneath a Steel Sky is a good example) and also distributes a few retro-inspired modern games like Legend of Grimrock. We could try them to distribute TDM. We would need at least a core set of missions or a full campaign to go with it by default. But since there's since Thief 4 will only get released in 2014, I'd say one has enough time to come up with a solution.

Edited April 9, 2013 by zergrush

[jaxa]

I don't know how popular Desura (ModDB distribution platform) is, but it could be useful as another mirror for a standalone TDM +/- campaign package. If we go standalone we should be able to get the news on the ModDB front page.

[New Horizon]

Desura approached us awhile ago, but we raised some concerns with them about updates since we have our own built in updater. They insisted that anyone who downloaded TDM from their service would 'have' to use their update system. I disagreed with this mentality and so did Greebo since it would mean people would show up here looking for support if their update system failed (bad) and if we were unable to bypass it, we would have send them packing to Desura (worse). If they were willing to host without the catches, that would be great.

[zergrush]

I say we try GoG once standalone is ready. No DRM, no bullshit, simple installer. The problem is, they only distribute for windows. Both Desura and Steam are multiplatform distributors which would be a big advantage. Perhaps we could re-open talks with the Desura folks.

[Sotha]

What the problem with the current setup? People download the updater and that gets the game for them. End of story.

 

Download services is second priority. Getting more exposure is the thing that matters. People can't get the updater if they don't know we exist. Spread the word!

[Dunedain]

I think the release of Thief 4 will get a lot of gamers who've never played Thief before interested to play all the Thief games, which will be great. And then a good number of those will then hear about TDM and see how superb it is for making Thief fan missions. =)

[demagogue]

The title of this thread really ought to be something like "What effect will the absence of a level editor for T4 have on TDM?" since this is the most realistic option we're looking at, I think. We'll have this new slew of players and people interested in the gameplay... How many of them might get interested in playing TDM, and how many of them might get ambitions to make their own levels? And what are ways we might leverage that along with the fact that T4 will probably not have FMs, but people may be looking for something like that in wake of the game.