Another newcomer's first impressions

[luizsilveira]

Hi guys. I'm someone brought by the recent standalone feature as I don't have Doom3 nor intend to get it. And boy was I pleased with the TDM!

 

I'm an old time gamer and lover of 3d games since the early times (for me, Castle of Wolfeinstein). Both Doom 1 and 2 got me amazed, and I spent so many hours playing Doom 2 death matches with friends via modem it's not even funny.

 

Anyway, enough of background and into TDM. My system is a modest if not ageing one, with a Core2Duo 3Ghz and an ATI 4850. Yet performance is just excellent: I've played 3 missions so far, and with all I could find absolutely maxxed out and 1920x1016, I have ~60fps most of the time (some times it dips into the twenties, but that's still good as I prefer eye candy over extreme smootheness).

 

So before anything else, I'd like to leave a big thank you for this great team effort. I've known the mod/game for only a few days and already had great hours of fun and immersion.

 

Now, onto some problems/quirks/suggestions, if I may as a new guy:

 

1. I don't know why, but my lighting doesn't seem to work all right. I see you tube videos and even images here on the media part of the site that look different from what I see in game. On youtube (for example), dark/shady areas are dark and lit areas are lit. Simple as that. But not for me. Everything for me looks more grayish. So even the areas in the shades are perfectly visible at all times. I never had to use the lantern or anything like that as I can see it all. This makes the whole game look a bit silly, because it's all light and fine, I can see it all, but the AI is right next to me and looking in my direction and can't see me! For me it's a mood breaker. I tried putting the gamma/brightness down (and then way down), but then everything gets dark. Not only I can't see squad but my eyes strain a lot really fast. Neither fun nor healthy. So... anything I could do/try about this? I fiddled with bloom both on max and min, no effect.

 

2. I think the AI is really, overly insensitive. Am I just too much of a hardcore gamer? I wouldn't think so, although I prefer simulation to casual run and gun. But knowing the game for a few hours I was already playing with AI's sensitivity on max and finding them really dull to spot me. I can do things like open and close doors in front of them, throw water arrows to extinguish light 1 or 2m from them, and so on, and they are completely oblivious to it all. So far for me this is not only a challenge breaker but a mood/immersion breaker as well. Quite quickly into the missions I start to get sloppy because the AI won't spot me at all, provided I stay in the shadows. I wish there was a way to boost their sensitivity, not only to light, but to doors, arrows, etc. Like said, mine is at max and personally I don't think it's nearly ideal for best gameplay.

 

3. I read a discussion about inventory item selection. I must say [ and ] are clumsy indeed. Especially when lock picking for example, when one needs to keep switching items back and forth. I quickly changed to mouse wheel and boy my life was better. I can use the numbers to call a weapon and ALT key to cycle through weapons. TAB for use item (although the frob to use is a great feature). Now... I noticed those keys were unused (ALT and TAB) and I'd like to throw one or two UI suggestions in terms of controls. I don't know if one is possible with this engine, hence two:

 

a ) mousewheel for item cycle, press and hold ALT + mousewheel for weapons. Or vice-versa. This would make it so much faster and easier.

 

b ) ALT to cycle between weapons/"inventory"/keys (for example), and the mousewheel would only work in that specific, selected category. So wheel to cycle between inventory items, press alt, not wheel cycles through weapons and so on.

 

Or any combination or modification of these, really. I'm pretty sure I've thought this through as it's almost a decade-old project but I'm just trying to brainstorm here.

 

4. A minor thing, but certainly a rating system and a couple of "flags" could help the in-game mission browser - especially for newcomers like me. It'd be tremendously amazing to see things like community rating both in terms of quality and difficulty, the length (short or long mission?), and if there are "supernatural" elements in it or not, etc. I know you have it all on the website and that's great, but it'd be neat to have in-game, especially as many more people will try it now that it's standalone. If I were you, I'd ship with a couple more "showcase" missions as well. It's not a huge download overall so one or two more hundred Mb will not put people off. I think you'd want to get them really hooked before they start fiddling with websites and downloads.

 

Once again, congratulations fort he project and the recent release, and thank you for the great hours you provided me with. These above are only a small feedback contribution from a fng, pretty tiny considering the big picture I'm sure. The only reason I'm posting these is because I loved the experience and the effort you've put into it, else I wouldn't have bothered.

 

Keep it up!

 

Edit: ah, I forgot a small 5: It makes me cringe a bit that an arrow to the head won't kill a soldier some times. I read the wiki and it does say that one should assume an alert soldier is taking measures to prevent damage from incoming arrows. But... I do feel that bit of "immersion breaker" (for lack of a better expression) when I hit the perfect arrow into the eye of a soldier... only for him to continue his pursuit.

Edited December 9, 2013 by luizsilveira

[Bikerdude]

Welcome mista :-)

[Ladro]

Welcome!

[RJFerret]

Welcome!

 

In settings, as you move the gamma slider, do you observe a change? If not, perhaps your graphic's card software is keeping control? If I move the slider down the dark areas get darker and more pervasive. There is a calibration section of the training mission to check. If the game isn't adjusting, perhaps check adjustments of your video card control software?

 

On the AI sensitivity, different mappers provide for different effects, by default the AI won't notice some of those things. A mapper has to manually specify objects to be noticed as missing (and those objects have to be visible/lit for the AI to see them missing). Similarly a designer has to specify a door should be noticed as open. So it's not the nature of the game for some of these things, which has that ability, but the desire of the designer of that mission.

 

On a map I'm working on, the AIs noticing a door is so sensitive, it's a challenge for me as the designer to get through it unnoticed!

 

I recently mapped one of my spare mouse buttons to lockpicks, and another to keys, but never have accessed inventory for those things since there are hotkeys available for them.

[stumpy]

a lot of that noticing things like doors and lights only came in with version 2.0 and may not have been added to maps made before version 2.0. in most cases its adding a spawnarg to each light and door, which takes time to do and test.

[Springheel]

a lot of that noticing things like doors and lights only came in with version 2.0

 

Those things have been available for a long time.

[luizsilveira]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

 

[...]In settings, as you move the gamma slider, do you observe a change?[...]

 

Yes, I do. The default is 1.2 and 1 for gamma and brightness respectively, I think. I've been playing with 0.9 and 0.9. The thing is, lowering the values lowers every light, including the lit areas. What I see in other's images is more "contrast", in which lit areas are well lit and shady areas are pitch black. Mine is never like that, and even when my light gem is the darkest the area I'm in is not. I can still see the floor and everything else. If I lower the gamma/brightness enough so it's truly black, then I can't see the lit areas well enough any more.

 

On the AI sensitivity, different mappers provide for different effects, by default the AI won't notice some of those things. A mapper has to manually specify objects to be noticed as missing (and those objects have to be visible/lit for the AI to see them missing). Similarly a designer has to specify a door should be noticed as open. So it's not the nature of the game for some of these things, which has that ability, but the desire of the designer of that mission.

 

Yeah, I understand that and think it's a great feature. Not precisely what I'm trying to point at though. I don't mean the AI noticing a door was left open, or an item is missing. I mean, the AI doesn't notice (neither see nor hear) when I'm in the act of opening or closing a door right in their faces. Same with the water arrows: later the AI might notice the light is off, but they don't notice I just splashed the wall lamp 1m next to them with a water arrow.

 

Of course I understand a "fully realistic" AI sensitivity would make the game impossible, but as is it seems a bit too simple/dull. Like said, if a noob who has been playing it for 2 days finds it way too easy even in the hardest difficulty setting... that sounded like something that could be addressed.

 

On a side note, I'm looking forward to play this with the Oculus Rift one day.

[Lux]

Welcome.

 

As others stated, there are hotkeys you can define in the controls for Keys, lantern, compass, maps, readables, lockpics. Pressing the key multiple times cycles through just those group items.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Lux

[Springheel]

Yes, I do. The default is 1.2 and 1 for gamma and brightness respectively, I think. I've been playing with 0.9 and 0.9. The thing is, lowering the values lowers every light, including the lit areas

 

Strange. Lowering the brightness will darken everything, but lowering the gamma should darken the dark areas without affecting the light ones.

 

I mean, the AI doesn't notice (neither see nor hear) when I'm in the act of opening or closing a door right in their faces. Same with the water arrows: later the AI might notice the light is off, but they don't notice I just splashed the wall lamp 1m next to them with a water arrow.

 

AI will turn to look at doors that open in their field of view, even if it's not labelled a suspicious door. If it's suspicious, they'll come over to investigate. Also, AI do hear water arrows, so they should at least make a comment if one hits near them.

 

It's odd, because most people complain about AI being _too_ sensitive. I wonder if there are other things working differently besides your light issue?

[Nico A.]

But... I do feel that bit of "immersion breaker" (for lack of a better expression) when I hit the perfect arrow into the eye of a soldier... only for him to continue his pursuit.

 

As long as it occurs only sometimes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[Springheel]

But... I do feel that bit of "immersion breaker" (for lack of a better expression) when I hit the perfect arrow into the eye of a soldier... only for him to continue his pursuit.

 

Yes, that's a valid point. However, allowing players to kill AI who are charging straight at them with a single arrow makes things too easy. Until we can come up with some other method of keeping that from happening (having AI raise an arm to defend their face was our original plan) we're stuck with the abstraction of hit points.

[RPGista]

Yes, that's a valid point. However, allowing players to kill AI who are charging straight at them with a single arrow makes things too easy. Until we can come up with some other method of keeping that from happening (having AI raise an arm to defend their face was our original plan) we're stuck with the abstraction of hit points.

 

Perhaps some adjustments to the bow, suggested at the time, could be (re)considered when you guys find the time. Increasing the drawing time-span to reasonable levels would most likely get the same results wanted (player can't go on a killing spree using the bow) by getting rid of rapid fire, without needing to change the fatality of arrows.

 

PS: A shield carrying AI that charged at you with a raised shield would be pretty cool/challenging.

[New Horizon]

Could you post some screen shots of what you're seeing? Perhaps there is a rendering issue.

[Lux]

Most other games would allow one shot arrow kill to the face if the target is not in an alerted state. If they are alerted though, then it would take 2-3 hits to the face assuming the AI is aware of you and somehow defends against those direct hits whether animated or not.

 

E.g. have their hit points lower/same when not alerted and then once alerted their hit points go to normal/some mult. of normal.

[Springheel]

Most other games would allow one shot arrow kill to the face if the target is not in an alerted state

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "most other games" comment, but that's how it works in TDM as well.

[RPGista]

Yes, the issue arose at the time of the transition from the previous version to this one. Something was overlooked and in previous versions the hitpoint values of guards were, on normal, half of what it was supposed to be. This meant that regardless of being alerted or not, guards and foes would always go down from a direct hit to the head, and also chest, depending on armor used. Increased combat difficulty levels worked ok, if I remember correctly.

 

Because of game design choices, once spotted the issue was correctly changed back to what was originally intended (to emulate Thief's mechanics). The previous state was working like that from at least version 1.6, which was when I first got to know TDM, so for a good couple of years? with no major concerns, but some instances of players ramboing missions with relative ease sparked discussion about implementing the fix to higher (=originally intended) hitpoints, so that those could be prevented for good. What has been discussed ever since (probably, by me mostly), was that steps could be taken in order to preserve that functionality as it was (one hit kills on sensible areas) on future versions too. As far as I know, not even on easy do guards go down with a single hit to the head anymore. Wether this happens or not, easy difficulty means AI will be poor at fighting. So you would be stuck with easy AI, if you want to keep hitpoints mechanics as it was working before.

 

The reason to want to keep fighting as hard as possible as well as, at the same time, as deadly as possible are 3, 1- is want for challenge, 2- is for preserving the fun and rewards of assassin-like play styles (for people who do not like fleeing at every situation or reloading everytime an AI gets suspicious), and 3- is for map design reasons (my mission itself has 2 situations where confrontation is the expected scenario (though you could still sneak past them) and that would be impossible, given the number and/or difficulty of the opponents, without being able to rely on a deadly sword/arrow).

Edited December 17, 2013 by RPGista