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OpenGL perf. on AMD/ATi gpu's: WIP fix.

Bikerdude

By Bikerdude,
in TDM Tech Support

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Tels

Tels

Posted
Posted

That's almost guaranteed to be Nvidia. They were notorious back in the Quake 3 days and same with the benchmarks with Aquamark to make them run better on their hardware.

Wouldn't surprise me to learn they are still doing it.

 

Exactly. Their entire "I see you are running doom3.exe, I have replaced half of the shaders with a different, faster version" was flawed from the begin. And it became fraud when "I see you are running PopularBenchmark.exe, I have replaced 2/3 of the shaders with faster versions that produce only 99% equal results" happened.

 

It also caused troubles on Windows for TDM, because our executable was back then still called "doom3.exe", but our shaders where completely different.

 

The driver shouldn't muck with what the developer wants to run, if this is indeed not optimal for the hardware, then talk to the developer, not muck with the code!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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San

San

Posted
Posted

Changed my X conf to Glamour (while ago, and i got about 8-9FPS).

Turned everything off, and... my FPS dropped for about 3FPS =/.

 

I've found that TGM does not recognize my VRAM.

It was set by guess to 64MB, but it is 512MB.

 

Running game with:

 

force_s3tc_enable=true ./thedarkmod.x86  +set sys_videoRam 512

help a bit, and now my FPS is solid 12FPS.

 

Not much, but game is now almost playable.

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San

San

Posted
Posted 
san@sammie:/media/san/ext4/PlayOnLinux/wineprefix/TheDarkMod/drive_c/darkmod > lspci
00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Trinity [Radeon HD 7400G]

ame of display: :0
display: :0  screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.4
server glx extensions:
    GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_ARB_create_context_profile, 
    GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float, GLX_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB, GLX_ARB_multisample, 
    GLX_EXT_create_context_es2_profile, GLX_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_EXT_visual_info, 
    GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_INTEL_swap_event, GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer, 
    GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, 
    GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_SGI_swap_control
client glx vendor string: Mesa Project and SGI
client glx version string: 1.4
client glx extensions:
    GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_ARB_create_context_profile, 
    GLX_ARB_create_context_robustness, GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float, 
    GLX_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB, GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, 
    GLX_EXT_buffer_age, GLX_EXT_create_context_es2_profile, 
    GLX_EXT_fbconfig_packed_float, GLX_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_EXT_visual_info, 
    GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_INTEL_swap_event, GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer, 
    GLX_MESA_multithread_makecurrent, GLX_MESA_query_renderer, 
    GLX_MESA_swap_control, GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_OML_sync_control, 
    GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, 
    GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_SGI_make_current_read, 
    GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_SGI_video_sync
GLX version: 1.4
GLX extensions:
    GLX_ARB_create_context, GLX_ARB_create_context_profile, 
    GLX_ARB_fbconfig_float, GLX_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, 
    GLX_EXT_create_context_es2_profile, GLX_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap, GLX_EXT_visual_info, 
    GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_INTEL_swap_event, GLX_MESA_copy_sub_buffer, 
    GLX_MESA_multithread_makecurrent, GLX_MESA_query_renderer, 
    GLX_MESA_swap_control, GLX_OML_swap_method, GLX_OML_sync_control, 
    GLX_SGIS_multisample, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, 
    GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group, GLX_SGI_make_current_read, 
    GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_SGI_video_sync
OpenGL vendor string: X.Org
OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on AMD ARUBA
OpenGL core profile version string: 3.3 (Core Profile) Mesa 10.5.0-devel
OpenGL core profile shading language version string: 3.30
OpenGL core profile context flags: (none)
OpenGL core profile profile mask: core profile
OpenGL core profile extensions:
    GL_AMD_conservative_depth, GL_AMD_draw_buffers_blend, 
    GL_AMD_seamless_cubemap_per_texture, GL_AMD_shader_stencil_export, 
    GL_AMD_shader_trinary_minmax, GL_AMD_vertex_shader_layer, 
    GL_AMD_vertex_shader_viewport_index, GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt3, 
    GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt5, GL_ARB_ES2_compatibility, 
    GL_ARB_ES3_compatibility, GL_ARB_base_instance, 
    GL_ARB_blend_func_extended, GL_ARB_buffer_storage, 
    GL_ARB_clear_buffer_object, GL_ARB_clip_control, 
    GL_ARB_compressed_texture_pixel_storage, GL_ARB_conservative_depth, 
    GL_ARB_copy_buffer, GL_ARB_debug_output, GL_ARB_depth_buffer_float, 
    GL_ARB_depth_clamp, GL_ARB_derivative_control, GL_ARB_draw_buffers, 
    GL_ARB_draw_buffers_blend, GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex, 
    GL_ARB_draw_instanced, GL_ARB_explicit_attrib_location, 
    GL_ARB_explicit_uniform_location, GL_ARB_fragment_coord_conventions, 
    GL_ARB_fragment_layer_viewport, GL_ARB_fragment_shader, 
    GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GL_ARB_get_program_binary, GL_ARB_half_float_pixel, 
    GL_ARB_half_float_vertex, GL_ARB_instanced_arrays, 
    GL_ARB_internalformat_query, GL_ARB_invalidate_subdata, 
    GL_ARB_map_buffer_alignment, GL_ARB_map_buffer_range, GL_ARB_multi_bind, 
    GL_ARB_occlusion_query2, GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object, GL_ARB_point_sprite, 
    GL_ARB_provoking_vertex, GL_ARB_robustness, GL_ARB_sample_shading, 
    GL_ARB_sampler_objects, GL_ARB_seamless_cube_map, 
    GL_ARB_seamless_cubemap_per_texture, GL_ARB_separate_shader_objects, 
    GL_ARB_shader_bit_encoding, GL_ARB_shader_objects, 
    GL_ARB_shader_stencil_export, GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod, 
    GL_ARB_shading_language_420pack, GL_ARB_shading_language_packing, 
    GL_ARB_stencil_texturing, GL_ARB_sync, GL_ARB_texture_barrier, 
    GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object, GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object_rgb32, 
    GL_ARB_texture_buffer_range, GL_ARB_texture_compression_bptc, 
    GL_ARB_texture_compression_rgtc, GL_ARB_texture_cube_map_array, 
    GL_ARB_texture_float, GL_ARB_texture_gather, 
    GL_ARB_texture_mirror_clamp_to_edge, GL_ARB_texture_multisample, 
    GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two, GL_ARB_texture_query_levels, 
    GL_ARB_texture_query_lod, GL_ARB_texture_rectangle, GL_ARB_texture_rg, 
    GL_ARB_texture_rgb10_a2ui, GL_ARB_texture_storage, 
    GL_ARB_texture_storage_multisample, GL_ARB_texture_swizzle, 
    GL_ARB_timer_query, GL_ARB_transform_feedback2, 
    GL_ARB_transform_feedback3, GL_ARB_transform_feedback_instanced, 
    GL_ARB_uniform_buffer_object, GL_ARB_vertex_array_bgra, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_array_object, GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_shader, GL_ARB_vertex_type_10f_11f_11f_rev, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_type_2_10_10_10_rev, GL_ARB_viewport_array, 
    GL_ATI_blend_equation_separate, GL_ATI_texture_compression_3dc, 
    GL_ATI_texture_float, GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once, GL_EXT_abgr, 
    GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate, GL_EXT_draw_buffers2, 
    GL_EXT_draw_instanced, GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, 
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample, GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample_blit_scaled, 
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil, GL_EXT_packed_float, 
    GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object, GL_EXT_provoking_vertex, 
    GL_EXT_shader_integer_mix, GL_EXT_texture_array, 
    GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1, GL_EXT_texture_compression_latc, 
    GL_EXT_texture_compression_rgtc, GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc, 
    GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic, GL_EXT_texture_integer, 
    GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp, GL_EXT_texture_sRGB, 
    GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_decode, GL_EXT_texture_shared_exponent, 
    GL_EXT_texture_snorm, GL_EXT_texture_swizzle, GL_EXT_timer_query, 
    GL_EXT_transform_feedback, GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra, 
    GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays, GL_KHR_context_flush_control, GL_KHR_debug, 
    GL_MESA_pack_invert, GL_MESA_texture_signed_rgba, 
    GL_NV_conditional_render, GL_NV_depth_clamp, GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil, 
    GL_NV_texture_barrier, GL_NV_vdpau_interop, GL_OES_EGL_image, 
    GL_OES_read_format, GL_S3_s3tc

OpenGL version string: 3.0 Mesa 10.5.0-devel
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.30
OpenGL context flags: (none)
OpenGL extensions:
    GL_AMD_conservative_depth, GL_AMD_draw_buffers_blend, 
    GL_AMD_seamless_cubemap_per_texture, GL_AMD_shader_stencil_export, 
    GL_AMD_shader_trinary_minmax, GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt3, 
    GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt5, GL_APPLE_packed_pixels, 
    GL_APPLE_vertex_array_object, GL_ARB_ES2_compatibility, 
    GL_ARB_ES3_compatibility, GL_ARB_base_instance, 
    GL_ARB_blend_func_extended, GL_ARB_buffer_storage, 
    GL_ARB_clear_buffer_object, GL_ARB_clip_control, 
    GL_ARB_color_buffer_float, GL_ARB_compressed_texture_pixel_storage, 
    GL_ARB_conservative_depth, GL_ARB_copy_buffer, GL_ARB_debug_output, 
    GL_ARB_depth_buffer_float, GL_ARB_depth_clamp, GL_ARB_depth_texture, 
    GL_ARB_derivative_control, GL_ARB_draw_buffers, GL_ARB_draw_buffers_blend, 
    GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex, GL_ARB_draw_instanced, 
    GL_ARB_explicit_attrib_location, GL_ARB_explicit_uniform_location, 
    GL_ARB_fragment_coord_conventions, GL_ARB_fragment_program, 
    GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow, GL_ARB_fragment_shader, 
    GL_ARB_framebuffer_object, GL_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GL_ARB_get_program_binary, GL_ARB_half_float_pixel, 
    GL_ARB_half_float_vertex, GL_ARB_instanced_arrays, 
    GL_ARB_internalformat_query, GL_ARB_invalidate_subdata, 
    GL_ARB_map_buffer_alignment, GL_ARB_map_buffer_range, GL_ARB_multi_bind, 
    GL_ARB_multisample, GL_ARB_multitexture, GL_ARB_occlusion_query, 
    GL_ARB_occlusion_query2, GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object, 
    GL_ARB_point_parameters, GL_ARB_point_sprite, GL_ARB_provoking_vertex, 
    GL_ARB_robustness, GL_ARB_sample_shading, GL_ARB_sampler_objects, 
    GL_ARB_seamless_cube_map, GL_ARB_seamless_cubemap_per_texture, 
    GL_ARB_separate_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shader_bit_encoding, 
    GL_ARB_shader_objects, GL_ARB_shader_stencil_export, 
    GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod, GL_ARB_shading_language_100, 
    GL_ARB_shading_language_420pack, GL_ARB_shading_language_packing, 
    GL_ARB_shadow, GL_ARB_stencil_texturing, GL_ARB_sync, 
    GL_ARB_texture_barrier, GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp, 
    GL_ARB_texture_compression, GL_ARB_texture_compression_bptc, 
    GL_ARB_texture_compression_rgtc, GL_ARB_texture_cube_map, 
    GL_ARB_texture_cube_map_array, GL_ARB_texture_env_add, 
    GL_ARB_texture_env_combine, GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar, 
    GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3, GL_ARB_texture_float, GL_ARB_texture_gather, 
    GL_ARB_texture_mirror_clamp_to_edge, GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat, 
    GL_ARB_texture_multisample, GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two, 
    GL_ARB_texture_query_levels, GL_ARB_texture_query_lod, 
    GL_ARB_texture_rectangle, GL_ARB_texture_rg, GL_ARB_texture_rgb10_a2ui, 
    GL_ARB_texture_storage, GL_ARB_texture_storage_multisample, 
    GL_ARB_texture_swizzle, GL_ARB_timer_query, GL_ARB_transform_feedback2, 
    GL_ARB_transform_feedback3, GL_ARB_transform_feedback_instanced, 
    GL_ARB_transpose_matrix, GL_ARB_uniform_buffer_object, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_array_bgra, GL_ARB_vertex_array_object, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding, GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_program, GL_ARB_vertex_shader, 
    GL_ARB_vertex_type_10f_11f_11f_rev, GL_ARB_vertex_type_2_10_10_10_rev, 
    GL_ARB_window_pos, GL_ATI_blend_equation_separate, GL_ATI_draw_buffers, 
    GL_ATI_separate_stencil, GL_ATI_texture_compression_3dc, 
    GL_ATI_texture_env_combine3, GL_ATI_texture_float, 
    GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once, GL_EXT_abgr, GL_EXT_bgra, GL_EXT_blend_color, 
    GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate, GL_EXT_blend_func_separate, 
    GL_EXT_blend_minmax, GL_EXT_blend_subtract, GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array, 
    GL_EXT_copy_texture, GL_EXT_draw_buffers2, GL_EXT_draw_instanced, 
    GL_EXT_draw_range_elements, GL_EXT_fog_coord, GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit, 
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample, GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample_blit_scaled, 
    GL_EXT_framebuffer_object, GL_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB, 
    GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters, GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays, 
    GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil, GL_EXT_packed_float, GL_EXT_packed_pixels, 
    GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object, GL_EXT_point_parameters, 
    GL_EXT_polygon_offset, GL_EXT_provoking_vertex, GL_EXT_rescale_normal, 
    GL_EXT_secondary_color, GL_EXT_separate_specular_color, 
    GL_EXT_shader_integer_mix, GL_EXT_shadow_funcs, GL_EXT_stencil_two_side, 
    GL_EXT_stencil_wrap, GL_EXT_subtexture, GL_EXT_texture, GL_EXT_texture3D, 
    GL_EXT_texture_array, GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1, 
    GL_EXT_texture_compression_latc, GL_EXT_texture_compression_rgtc, 
    GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc, GL_EXT_texture_cube_map, 
    GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp, GL_EXT_texture_env_add, 
    GL_EXT_texture_env_combine, GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3, 
    GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic, GL_EXT_texture_integer, 
    GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias, GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp, 
    GL_EXT_texture_object, GL_EXT_texture_rectangle, GL_EXT_texture_sRGB, 
    GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_decode, GL_EXT_texture_shared_exponent, 
    GL_EXT_texture_snorm, GL_EXT_texture_swizzle, GL_EXT_timer_query, 
    GL_EXT_transform_feedback, GL_EXT_vertex_array, GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra, 
    GL_IBM_multimode_draw_arrays, GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip, 
    GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat, GL_INGR_blend_func_separate, 
    GL_KHR_context_flush_control, GL_KHR_debug, GL_MESA_pack_invert, 
    GL_MESA_texture_signed_rgba, GL_MESA_window_pos, GL_NV_blend_square, 
    GL_NV_conditional_render, GL_NV_depth_clamp, GL_NV_fog_distance, 
    GL_NV_light_max_exponent, GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil, 
    GL_NV_primitive_restart, GL_NV_texgen_reflection, GL_NV_texture_barrier, 
    GL_NV_texture_env_combine4, GL_NV_texture_rectangle, GL_NV_vdpau_interop, 
    GL_OES_EGL_image, GL_OES_read_format, GL_S3_s3tc, 
    GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap, GL_SGIS_texture_border_clamp, 
    GL_SGIS_texture_edge_clamp, GL_SGIS_texture_lod, GL_SUN_multi_draw_arrays

OpenGL ES profile version string: OpenGL ES 3.0 Mesa 10.5.0-devel
OpenGL ES profile shading language version string: OpenGL ES GLSL ES 3.0
OpenGL ES profile extensions:
    GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt3, GL_ANGLE_texture_compression_dxt5, 
    GL_APPLE_texture_max_level, GL_EXT_blend_minmax, 
    GL_EXT_color_buffer_float, GL_EXT_discard_framebuffer, 
    GL_EXT_map_buffer_range, GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays, 
    GL_EXT_read_format_bgra, GL_EXT_separate_shader_objects, 
    GL_EXT_shader_integer_mix, GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1, 
    GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic, GL_EXT_texture_format_BGRA8888, 
    GL_EXT_texture_rg, GL_EXT_texture_type_2_10_10_10_REV, 
    GL_EXT_unpack_subimage, GL_KHR_context_flush_control, GL_NV_draw_buffers, 
    GL_NV_fbo_color_attachments, GL_NV_read_buffer, GL_OES_EGL_image, 
    GL_OES_EGL_image_external, GL_OES_compressed_ETC1_RGB8_texture, 
    GL_OES_depth24, GL_OES_depth_texture, GL_OES_depth_texture_cube_map, 
    GL_OES_element_index_uint, GL_OES_fbo_render_mipmap, 
    GL_OES_get_program_binary, GL_OES_mapbuffer, GL_OES_packed_depth_stencil, 
    GL_OES_rgb8_rgba8, GL_OES_standard_derivatives, GL_OES_stencil8, 
    GL_OES_surfaceless_context, GL_OES_texture_3D, GL_OES_texture_npot, 
    GL_OES_vertex_array_object

AMD A4-4355M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics

Samsung NP535U3C-A01PL

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motorsep

motorsep

Posted
Posted

 

Exactly. Their entire "I see you are running doom3.exe, I have replaced half of the shaders with a different, faster version" was flawed from the begin. And it became fraud when "I see you are running PopularBenchmark.exe, I have replaced 2/3 of the shaders with faster versions that produce only 99% equal results" happened.

 

It also caused troubles on Windows for TDM, because our executable was back then still called "doom3.exe", but our shaders where completely different.

 

The driver shouldn't muck with what the developer wants to run, if this is indeed not optimal for the hardware, then talk to the developer, not muck with the code!

 

Lol, develop for consoles and don't deal with drivers?

 

Or use extensions to make it run fast on Nvidia?

 

Neither DP engine nor Storm Engine 2 use anything special for Nvidia, but run fast. No need to blame vendor, if shaders are poorly written or use obsolete instructions/functions.

 

Different story when shader are fine and written per standards, but the game runs horribly slow on GPU from a vendor who swears by purity of their OpenGL specs on driver.

 

So, running fine on Nvidia, Intel and even on AMD R9, but not on anything else from AMD - that means OpenGL driver sucks. Note that it seems like D3D renderers have no issues with AMD. Only OpenGL ones.

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  • 1 month later...
Tels

Tels

Posted
Posted

Yeah, we'll see. More than likely it'll be something stupid like only for 2XX series cards.

Sorry after my issues with 5870 mobility crossfire, I'm not very fond of ATI.

 

Yeah, the pessimist in me says they fixed some issues nobody actually had, accidentily introduced a few new bugs and never actually touched the issue we wanted fixed. That's how it typically goes, and I'm not even singling AMD out here :rolleyes:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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lowenz

lowenz

Posted
Posted

 

Yeah, the pessimist in me says they fixed some issues nobody actually had, accidentily introduced a few new bugs and never actually touched the issue we wanted fixed. That's how it typically goes, and I'm not even singling AMD out here :rolleyes:

%5BEmoticon%5D%20Asd.gif

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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motorsep

motorsep

Posted
Posted

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx

 

This is hilarious - Windows 8.0 is no longer supported. So I take it that 14.7 will be only for Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 o.O So Windows 7 / 8 users are out of luck, again?! Pffff... Well done AMD - "we fixed the bugs, but you can't benefit from it unless you upgrade your Windows".

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Bikerdude

Bikerdude

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Its a non issue dude, all future driver's will support 8.1 and regarding Win7, read further down the page where is says -

 

Compatible Operating Systems

The AMD Catalyst 14.7 RC Driver for Windows is designed to support the following Microsoft Windows platforms:

  • Windows 8.1 (32 & 64-bit version)
  • Windows 7 (32 & 64-bit version with SP1 or higher)

 

Anyone still using 8.0 should be upgrading to 8.1. it is free after all.

 

I have emailed my contact to confirm if this is the driver with the OpenGL fix for TDM, The next version which should coming out Tomoz which will have the fix! :D

 

I'n the meantime who among us has a R9 series gfx card in thier PC..?

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