Issues with running and creeping being set to toggle

[MirceaKitsune]

I know this is a bit late for 2.12 Beta 3, was planning on asking earlier but other things kept me busy. Latest TDM version allows toggling not just crouching but also walking and sneaking, which is a great feature and I prefer it over having to keep the key pressed. There is however one problem I keep running into: There's no indication as to when crouching or walking is toggled, the same way there is a HUD element for crouching. This can be a problem when you're sneaking from a nearby AI or stuck in a tight space, as you need to test which modes are used by walking around. Think there would be a way to make the symbols on the sides of the lightgem also change shape based on those modes, or another good way of making them clear?

Also noticed an additional problem: Sneak and run are mutually exclusive yet get enabled independently. I often find myself not knowing why I'm slow, noticing it's because creeping was on, but then I disable it to find myself running and making too much noise so I have to hit the run key as well but a guard may have already heard me... you basically need to tinker with two keys to switch between the 3 modes (creep, walk, run). When both creep and run are set to toggle, would it be better if pressing either key would also toggle the other mode?

Yet another confusing though less problematic aspect is the toggles not persisting between saves: I have running turned on, do a save, run into trouble and reload, then I'm suddenly slow again. Since crouching is persistent in saves, can the toggles for creeping and running do the same?

[Daft Mugi]

9 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Yet another confusing though less problematic aspect is the toggles not persisting between saves: I have running turned on, do a save, run into trouble and reload, then I'm suddenly slow again. Since crouching is persistent in saves, can the toggles for creeping and running do the same?

Ugh, yeah, the toggle state between walk/run doesn't get saved. It's using the old Doom 3 implementation. I'll take a look.

[stgatilov]

The graphical indicators is something for an artist to invent.
The lightgem graphics has not been touched for ages, but maybe there is a way to add something without annoying everyone.

[MirceaKitsune]

On 1/17/2024 at 2:43 AM, Daft Mugi said:

Ugh, yeah, the toggle state between walk/run doesn't get saved. It's using the old Doom 3 implementation. I'll take a look.

Thanks, that would be one of the issues down. Could you also make it so when both creep and run are set to toggle, toggling one on also turns the other off? This way whenever you come out of running or creeping, you know you'll be back to walking instead of jumping straight to the other mode. Currently creeping blocks running entirely, you need to manually turn it off before the run toggle works at all which can be inconvenient if want to just jump to the mode of the key you pressed.

21 hours ago, stgatilov said:

The graphical indicators is something for an artist to invent.
The lightgem graphics has not been touched for ages, but maybe there is a way to add something without annoying everyone.

I've always wondered if the HUD and menu graphics could be modernized to be a little more high resolution: We could surely have a nicer looking lightgem, one that actually looks more like a gem and maybe makes light level even clearer. I've tinkered with the HUD and could technically look at it, but I'm working on several projects now and don't even know for sure what changes would be accepted in vanilla. Hope someone else can provide more feedback and maybe take a look!

Can't say I'm a big fan of the current crouch indicator in general: It's two decorations on the side of the lightgem that stretch to the bottom of the screen, makes the point clear but looks kind of ugly. I can't readily think of anything else that wouldn't be distracting though. Normally we could use an icon indicating posture as a silhouette of the person, but that might be too large and distracting and modern looking... the later issue can be fixed by making it more like a symbol carved into a rune.

[MirceaKitsune]

Very rough example of what I'm imagining, obviously not to scale or anything just the general idea of it. Made with this and this if anyone's curious or could use the graphics for anything. Feels that something this could look pretty good if done well.

[snatcher]

There's plenty of unused space besides the lightgem, no need to go on top or anywhere else. We can take advantage of the existing stand/crouch graphic or think something completely new but alongside the lightgem, imho.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Very rough example of what I'm imagining, obviously not to scale or anything just the general idea of it. Made with this and this if anyone's curious or could use the graphics for anything. Feels that something this could look pretty good if done well.

Sorry, but this doesn't look at all like the TDM UI, I would prefer something on the sides like Snatcher suggested.

Edited January 19 by wesp5

[MirceaKitsune]

The sides of the lightgem are better, but then you need to have the same thing on either side or else it looks ugly. Maybe the thing at each side of the gem can refer to a specific mode, like left is crouching and right is running, but that might get a little too complicated... if not a posture symbol could be in the middle of the gem, it's not like it obstructs its visibility as there's plenty of surface area to tell the value from, but upon a quick edit for this idea I don't much like how it looks either.

[snatcher]

Bull's eye! Right in the middle of the lightgem.

There is no rush, is it? We can explore all options, and then more.

[MirceaKitsune]

3 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Bull's eye! Right in the middle of the lightgem.

There is no rush, is it? We can explore all options, and then more.

Yeah it looks too distracting so I wouldn't go with that. Only rush would be the upcoming release, I should have posted those concerns earlier but got focused on other stuff... it's no tragedy if the change doesn't make it in 2.12 though, hopefully at least the toggles can be solved which I'd say are the main issue.

[wesp5]

The current indicator swaps between being compress and decompressed on the z axis at the moment. How about we make it compress and decompress on the x axis as well?

[snatcher]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

The current indicator swaps between being compress and decompressed on the z axis at the moment. How about we make it compress and decompress on the x axis as well?

I completely agree. This must be the first option to be explored.

[Daft Mugi]

On 1/16/2024 at 6:32 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

Yet another confusing though less problematic aspect is the toggles not persisting between saves: I have running turned on, do a save, run into trouble and reload, then I'm suddenly slow again. Since crouching is persistent in saves, can the toggles for creeping and running do the same?

This is now fixed in SVN. The toggled run state is now saved to and restored from the saved game file.

https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6458

[MirceaKitsune]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:34 AM, Daft Mugi said:

This is now fixed in SVN. The toggled run state is now saved to and restored from the saved game file.

https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6458

Thank you for the fix! I played a FM using the latest beta and it seems to be working great.

Wanted to ask about my other point regarding the toggle states, whether you think that should be changed as well: When both running and creeping are set to toggle, shouldn't toggling one instantly disable the other? Unlike crouching the two can't be used in combination with each other, at the moment creeping happens to override running; It would be easier to know that when you exit running or creeping, you're always back to normal walking instead of the other mode if you forgot it turned on.

[Daft Mugi]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:29 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

Wanted to ask about my other point regarding the toggle states, whether you think that should be changed as well: When both running and creeping are set to toggle, shouldn't toggling one instantly disable the other? Unlike crouching the two can't be used in combination with each other, at the moment creeping happens to override running; It would be easier to know that when you exit running or creeping, you're always back to normal walking instead of the other mode if you forgot it turned on.

Well, let's explore this a bit. How can this be solved?

Currently, creeping overrides running (like you said).

Here are a couple issues or considerations:

1. What about players who want to keep the fine control of toggling each one independently? Perhaps some players want to go from creeping to running.
2. At the moment, the code is written in such a way (due to its Doom 3 history) that toggling creep can set the toggled run state, but toggling run cannot set the toggled creep state. The toggle creep key can set the toggled run state to walk but only once. If the player presses the toggle run key again, it will toggle without regard to the toggled creep state. Fixing this would require a lot of code rewriting.

Brainstorming: It almost sounds like increase and decrease speed keys are desired. Run key to go from creep to walk and from walk to run. Creep key to go from run to walk and from walk to creep.

If you're curious to give this a try, here's a Linux test build that matches  beta212-05 (rev 16950-10635) with the following change: The toggle creep key sets the toggled run state to walk but only once. If the player presses the toggle run key again, it will toggle without regard to the toggled creep state. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1osTCQRf7LQ5wPvhGl2uRU4NcFnJPEu9_/view?usp=sharing

[MirceaKitsune]

Great take on it and solution from what I understand! Will the normal Beta 6 contain this patch? If so it's easier to wait till then, otherwise if it's important I can of course give the test build a try given it doesn't mess with my normal install.

[thebigh]

On 1/19/2024 at 6:06 AM, stgatilov said:

The lightgem graphics has not been touched for ages, but maybe there is a way to add something without annoying everyone.

I'd avoid messing with the style, but doubling the number of distinct steps would be nice. Currently it seems too coarse-grained for me.

[Daft Mugi]

20 hours ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Great take on it and solution from what I understand! Will the normal Beta 6 contain this patch? If so it's easier to wait till then, otherwise if it's important I can of course give the test build a try given it doesn't mess with my normal install.

In its current state, it might not be included in TDM. It needs more work, in my opinion. I wanted to give you and others a chance to try it and give feedback. Maybe it'll spark some ideas.