Weapons In Water Wish List

[jtbalogh]

Will an FM author have the capability to allow weapons to be drawn while standing in water rather than having the game automatically shoulder it. For example in three feet of water, climb out with a rope arrow or bash/cut obstacle with a sword as usual. Same thing in deep water, but the weapons are wobbly and inaccurate like when being tired. In deep water, the weapons only cause half damage or deployed at half speed. Just a thought.

[Ombrenuit]

A simple solution. If one is swimming, they can't use said weapons . If the water is shallow, they are standing, and as I can't imagine the difficulty of keeping one's self afloat and firing an arrow I would have to say that it's impossible (drawing the bow back in the water would make it's effect fairly useless as well).

[Gildoran]

You could float on your back and hold the bow above you ... though that ignores the matter of loot and equipment weighting you down.

 

But I sympathise with jtbalogh - there have been numberous times when I've wanted to fire a rope arrow out of the water, and I felt like the game was restricting me more than was reasonable. I'd be fine with the arrow not going as far, but not being able to fire at all? That seems a little harsh.

 

Also, it'd be nice if you could try to pry off grates or whatnot with your sword while underwater.

[Ombrenuit]

Also, it'd be nice if you could try to pry off grates or whatnot with your sword while underwater.

 

Hmm...that would enter an entirely knew gameplay mechanic, the prying off grates and the like . Perhaps one could have a crowbar as a tool and use it instead to pry and the like--chests, doors, grates, windows. A thought.

 

But also, like every gameplay tool, the sword and every other weapon has an ascribed purpose. That purpose has never been to pry open containers, it's been for defense (which is why Thief 3 got it all wrong. While the best defense is an offense, if thats the road you wish to take rather then simply blocking, the dagger was pathetic. You couldn't use it to defend yourself, you could only use it to simply kill--or rather, when you did use it to be killed--instead of course, if you wanted to substitute a backstab for a blackjack...and why?). A thief cannot really swing a sword, much less defend himself underwater particularly well with it. Also, I believe that the purpose of constricting the player in the water was to make him vulnerable where guards cannot particularly go. If Garrett jumped down into a canal with a guard chasing him, is the guard just going to stand there and wait for Garrett to pick him off with an arrow set? I believe the designers anticipated this and avoided it entirely with this restriction. Also they made it a challenge for Garrett. Yes, one could seek refuge into the depths but then again, the thief might be picked off by archers where he himself cannot return the favor.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Ombrenuit

[Ishtvan]

Having a sword out underwater to bash open grates and fight off mean fish was being debated internally, last I checked. The bow underwater is not that believable though and will probably not be included (although AFAIK you'll be able to fire a bow when wading in water that's not over your head). I doubt you could fire very well even when floating on your back, since your upper body has to kind've turn to one side when drawing a bow.

[Ombrenuit]

Having a sword out underwater to bash open grates and fight off mean fish was being debated internally, last I checked. The bow underwater is not that believable though and will probably not be included (although AFAIK you'll be able to fire a bow when wading in water that's not over your head). I doubt you could fire very well even when floating on your back, since your upper body has to kind've turn to one side when drawing a bow.

 

By the way, is there a splashing effect? If guards were walking in shallow water would they splash at all?

[Ishtvan]

Yes, there is a splashing effect, although the current one needs some aesthetic tweaking.

[jtbalogh]

Okay, you have convinced me weapons under deep water can remain disabled. However, seeing weapons disabled in two feet of water is a restiction. Standing in 5 feet of water could still allow weapons ? For deep water, perhaps leave throwing as an option since can not deploy weapons ?

 

...purpose of constricting the player in the water was to make him vulnerable where guards cannot particularly go...

Throwing flash bombs, mines, boxes, etc. can show it is feasible to do things while in water, so not out of the question. Can the crystals for bows be shown in the inventory too so the player can frob/throw it, and not just shoot it? The player can float along the surface of deep water and throw items. Whether in water or on land, the throwing distance will obviously remain small and inaccurate. Dropping it does nothing special except leave the crystal on the floor as usual.

Edited February 22, 2006 by jtbalogh

[New Horizon]

Okay, you have convinced me weapons under deep water can remain disabled. However, seeing weapons disabled in two feet of water is a restiction. Standing in 5 feet of water could still allow weapons ? For deep water, perhaps leave throwing as an option since can not deploy weapons ?

 

 

I don't see much need to complicate the system much beyond the original. The player will be able to use weapons up to a certain point, I'm not sure where that cut off point is at the moment, but I'll check it out. If you're carrying a bunch of equipment...it's not very likely that you're going to be able to stay afloat long enough to use anything if your feet can no longer touch the surface. For a person not carrying an arsenal, it wouldn't be a problem. But this guy is dressed in fairly restrictive clothing from head to foot. He needs all his resources geared towards swimming when he's completely underwater.

 

If an FM author absolutely 'must' have it...they can find a way to put it in, but I don't think you'll see anything too outrageous supported natively in TDM.

[jtbalogh]

Thanks for checking New Horizon.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, you have convinced me weapons under deep water can remain disabled. However, seeing weapons disabled in two feet of water is a restiction. Standing in 5 feet of water could still allow weapons ? For deep water, perhaps leave throwing as an option since can not deploy weapons ?

 

Weapons won't be disabled in 2 ft of water. We can already check where the waterlevel is (feet, waist, chest, neck, etc), and it's pretty easy for the code to only disable them when the water is up to your neck, or something like that.

 

I'm personally in favor of using the sword underwater for bashing gates open and the like, but can't promise anything since we all have to agree.

[sparhawk]

Maybe we should create a crowbar for that. Would make more sense.

[New Horizon]

Maybe we should create a crowbar for that. Would make more sense.

 

Why add yet another tool to the arsenal? The sword could be used as a crowbar.

[Springheel]

Let's replace the sword with a crowbar. It's a more thiefy tool anyway, and it can still be used to parry, or to club AI over the head, or even hook loot that's out of reach.

 

 

[Ishtvan]

And if you press down, down, forward, block + attack, you'll execute a special trip takedown manuever where you hook the opponent's leg with the crowbar and pull! Keep holding attack + down to follow up with a fatality.

 

Anyway, yeah I think for gameplay purposes of avoiding too much clutter in the inventory/weapons, the sword could also function as a prybar.

[SneaksieDave]

Let's replace the sword with a crowbar. It's a more thiefy tool anyway, and it can still be used to parry, or to club AI over the head, or even hook loot that's out of reach.

 

 

Oh, shit... that could be a good point.

 

*prepares for internal debate-war*

 

If only we'd went with Source.......... *snap!*

[Ombrenuit]

But this guy is dressed in fairly restrictive clothing from head to foot. He needs all his resources geared towards swimming when he's completely underwater.

If only we'd went with Source.......... *snap!*

 

I hear that the radiation suit is pretty versitile too, made of some real quality fabric that can minimize abrasions as well as allow for some flexability. With modifications, we could have had a button for expandable flippers. Garrett woulda been a thieving machine!

[ZylonBane]

I'm going to assume you meant to say "hazard suit" and "Gordon" here.

[oDDity]

It's round about this time that I should be congratulated for being the only person on the internet never to have played either of the Half Life games, and never will.

[sparhawk]

You missed something. Poor sod.

[Maximius]

My two cents: I love the idea of a crowbar in the Thief's kit, a small one like my car stereo stealing buddies used to carry in their bookbags, only about a foot long or so. Very Thiefy stuff. Great for gouging out nails and bolts and cranking open grates and treasure chests.

 

A sword could shatter or snap if used as a crowbar, if its really flexible it will simply bend like a rapier and not apply much leverage to the obstacle. The crowbar could serve as a crude weapon as well in a pinch.

 

Speaking of the Thief in water, heres are some completely unrelated articles!

 

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...SPGQLHB69I1.DTL

 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN

Edited February 23, 2006 by Maximius

[bob_arctor]

To be honest I quite like the idea of a crowbar used only for opening things.

 

If you think about it it's another method of either providing interest, alongside sword-bashing and keys/lockpicks, and another method of providing generic objectives: You are lacking a crowbar to get in the safe-room, so find one in the toolshed on the other side of the building, etc.

 

However I wouldn't really care if it was missing, and understand restraints on all that kind of thing.

[Springheel]

and another method of providing generic objectives: You are lacking a crowbar to get in the safe-room, so find one in the toolshed on the other side of the building, etc.

 

Much different than, say: you are lacking a key to get in the saferoom, so find one in the office on the other side of the building.

[jtbalogh]

Can the texture of water be made more opaque, like muddy water or the labrea tar pits? Limited vision.

[Domarius]

Much different than, say: you are lacking a key to get in the saferoom, so find one in the office on the other side of the building.

Mechanically it's no different, yes, but that hardly invalidates the idea...

 

Mechanically, a haunt is no different than a guard, it just has a different mesh, voice clips, and a higher movement rate and can't be knocked out. It's the placement in the game that makes all the difference.

 

Mechanically, the cogs you find in the OMs to unlock the mechanical doors are identical to keys, but you would not rather they replaced them all with keys.

 

In this case, a crowbar can help provide some immersion, since you can understand using a crowbar to break open things, or lever open certain grates, but not a sword.

 

 

It's not essential for the gameplay in my opinion, but it's not a bad idea either.