Due For An Update?

[firoso]

It's been a while since that news page changed, over 2 months actually, a good news article could simply be a culmination of things decided on the forums and maybe a quick FAQ cuz there are LOTS of questions oft asked on the forums that suck up threads...

[New Horizon]

It's been a while since that news page changed, over 2 months actually, a good news article could simply be a culmination of things decided on the forums and maybe a quick FAQ cuz there are LOTS of questions oft asked on the forums that suck up threads...

 

We've been quite busy working, but an update will be issue shortly.

[demagogue]

Oh, I remember you guys talking about an up-coming special surprise release of something in February. Anyway, I'm not in any rush so take your time to do it right... It's always good to hear the phrase "quite busy working", though.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Well it's always kinda difficult to give an amazing update when mostly what's going on is the programming section getting further on some complex code, or some more models being skinned.

[demagogue]

The programming stuff is actually the more interesting part for me ... tackling some logical problem and getting the mechanism to work right, although I can see how it doesn't translate well to a few bullet points. Speaking of which:

 

Good update.

 

Gameplay-wise, the searching behavior sounds like the most important thing you updated us on. How does it feel against something like T2? I remember them 90% of the time being able to know which direction to go and walking generally towards you, but there were consistent ways you could confuse them to get them going in the wrong direction. Also, iirc the searching behavior was somewhat modifiable in the guard's archetype wasn't it?

 

Guard armor sounds duly cool ... is it hardwired to a guard or a property you can add or take away and the sound is the cue whether a guard is wearing it?

 

Great cathedral screenshot of course.

 

cheers.

Edited May 17, 2006 by demagogue

[Domarius]

Yeah we are all sick of the overly simplistic search behaviour from previous games, and search behaviour has been one of the most thoroughly discussed things, and also the most speedily discussed things, since there isn't really any thing to argue about, its just about trying to emulate the way people behave already

 

And sophisticatedZombie has been doing very well at bringing the outcome of these discussions to life!

[Springheel]

It's been a while since that news page changed

 

I was in the middle of working on the update when you posted this.

 

Gameplay-wise, the searching behavior sounds like the most important thing you updated us on. How does it feel against something like T2?

 

It's still under construction so it's hard to tell yet. SophisticatedZombie is currently adding communication between AI to the mix, so they can call for help. We'll no doubt be working on and tweaking this area for the next year or so.

 

Our goal is to make AI behaviour as 'unpredictable' as possible while still being reasonable. The magic of Thief disappears a bit when you can start to predict exactly when and how the AI will react to you, so we're adding in a lot of random variables to keep you on your toes.

 

Guard armor sounds duly cool ... is it hardwired to a guard or a property you can add or take away and the sound is the cue whether a guard is wearing it?

 

You'll be able to just look at guards and see whether they have armour or not. The model textures are classified according to the kind of material they are. Hit a model where he's wearing metal and you won't do any damage. Hit him in a fleshy area and you'll do a lot. If you look at some of our model screenshots you'll see that some AI are wearing lots of armour and others aren't, so you can pick and choose according to how difficult you want to make it.

 

Theoretically you could also modify the texture materials to make a guard who appears to be wearing cloth actually be wearing chainmail (as if he has hidden armour underneath).

[Ishtvan]

To be fair though, we have to make sure our system to differentiate between armor and flesh performs well enough to use it for real. It works in test cases with a few AI, but because it uses different materials for the flesh and armor, it might incidentally make the renderer do extra work when displaying an AI. We still have to run a test with several AI visible at once with and without the damage materials. (Hint hint mappers! )

[ZylonBane]

Our goal is to make AI behaviour as 'unpredictable' as possible while still being reasonable.

Wasn't it Randy Smith who's gone on and on about how the key to Thief's gameplay is the ability to manipulate a hostile environment to your advantage? Unpredictable AI behavior would seem to work against that goal.

 

I suppose it comes down to what you define as unpredictable. If I fire a noisemaker down a hall, I certainly don't want the AI to walk toward me instead of the noisemaker. That would piss me off.

[oDDity]

Unpredictable just means they won't necessarily always do the same action in the same set of circumstances, it doesn't mean when you shoot a moss arrow at them they'll sometimes put on a moose costume and dance a tango with the nearest AI.

Their range of possible actions will be limited to what a real person might do in the situation.

They might come towards you if you shoot a nosiemaker arrow in certain situations, such as a long hallway - well, there's only two directions it could have come from, so they've a 50/50 chance of guessing right. IT shouldn't be hardcoded that they always guess wrong and go the opposite way.

I always thought the whole idea of noise arrows were ridiculous anyway, they just tell the AI there is someone lurking around shooting fancy arrows at them.

[Springheel]

Wasn't it Randy Smith who's gone on and on about how the key to Thief's gameplay is the ability to manipulate a hostile environment to your advantage? Unpredictable AI behavior would seem to work against that goal.

 

That's true to a point. Players should be able to predict the consequences of their actions in most cases. But just how accurately they should be able to predict them is another matter.

 

When I was first playing Thief, I was genuinely tense and nervous around the AI, because I was never quite sure what they were going to do. Was I hidden well enough? Would the guard turn around just as I was creeping up behind him?

 

Eventually, I learned exactly how far guards could see, and that they always did the exact same thing on their patrol route, and how much noise I could safely make before I turned around. Once I learned that, the tension and nervousness was gone. Thief was still fun, but it was nowhere near as fun as it had been at the beginning.

 

Our plan isn't to make AI unpredictable in the true sense of the word, but to try and give them a more realistic 'range of response'. Not every AI has exactly the same visual acuity. You can't be sure that every city watch guard will only see you when you get within 20 feet, some might see you at 22, or not until 18. An AI might occasionally look over his shoulder, especially if he's already suspicious. Guards won't necessarily face north for 20 seconds *every single time* they reach the end of the hall. Sometimes they'll stop and check out a painting on their route, showing up a few seconds later than you expected.

 

Will this behaviour make the game more difficult? Yes. But it will hopefully increase your sense of immersion as well, making it feel more like you are outwitting actually people, rather than clockwork characters. And hopefully it will keep players from losing that tension of not knowing *for sure* what the AI might do.

[Domarius]

Yeah, it's still like real life, where you can't be absolutely sure about anything. You can increase your probabilities of sucess, but you got to have a plan B to fall back on, just in case it doesn't go exactly as planned. You can be more sure, or less sure, about something, but sometimes you can't be absolutely sure.

 

You can still manipulate your environment effectively, you just don't have total and absolute control over it.

[demagogue]

Looks like all you guys are on the same page with this.

 

I think it's a good idea too, but a lot seems to turn on what's "reasonable" variability. I get the idea you are trying to connect it to the range of behavior an actual human might display in the same situation ... a little variety or randomness within the boundries of "human" behavior (predictable unpredictability, so to speak). For what my 2 cents is worth, to my mind that would come in three main categories (or sources of "randomness" in behavior) , (1) small range of arbitrary randomness, like slight shifts in pace (best hardcoded into the AI, since it seems entirely internally cued), (2) trivial-cued behavior (only seems random because the cue is so trivial), like looking at a painting or out a window (would that be hardcoded? it's more "environmentally" cued), and maybe even (3) "strategic randomness", trying to be a little sneaky, looking over the shoulder at random times, but mostly when suspicious* (which seems both internally and environmentally cued) -- but the point is, nothing outright irrational, unpredictable unpredictability so to speak (stopping and suddenly running in the opposite direction).

 

Anyway, it all sounds like a good approach in theory, although what's reasonable on paper may be different from reasonable in game, so you'd want to play test any approach quite a bit, but you guys already know that.

 

 

* which reminds me of the hawk/dove studies (and their math/logic) for "strategically random" animal behavior and game theory economics, which I was about to say is a totally different story, but actually on reflection the insights and math of them might actually be useful to the AI programming, so I'll say that instead.

Edited May 18, 2006 by demagogue

[oDDity]

I can't wait till one chases you, gives up and wanders off, you think he's gone, you sneak out, look around... 'ahh, no one about, that was too easy', stop being careful, walk a few yards down the hall, and the same guard jumps out at you from his hiding place

'Ahaha! thought you'd fooled me you villian?' *whack*

[Domarius]

Yep. The "Elite" guards will keep you on your toes

[oDDity]

Well yes, they should act like a sly person might act, not like dumb computer AI.

Instead of clunking around in their big size 15 boots making a lot of racket and shouting abuse at you, then wandering off whislting, having forgot all about you, they'll pretend to give up, and hide around the corner to see if they can trap you.

[sparhawk]

I hope that we can achieve that. We certainly will try to.