More movements?

[Diego]

Heya people!

 

I just played Mirror's edge. Nice game.. but could be a lot better in my opinion!

 

Anyway, there are some very good stuff going on there that would fit seamlessly into thief gameplay. Like bouncing off walls and moving while grabing an edge. None of this is new, of course, but it's nice

 

By the way, I thought I mentioned this here before, but I searched the forums and found nothing!

[STiFU]

Haha, as soon as I read the thread title, I thought someone must've played Mirror's Edge recently. I guess bouncing of walls would be a little bit too acrobatic here, but being able to hold on to borders and climb along could create some nice climbing-gameplay. The problem here is though that it would absolutely be necessary that the player sees his hands or it will look really awkward. I also remember posting this once already and I think that the conclusion was "it's not gonna happen", at least anytime soon...

 

Edit: Here is your original post by the way.

Edited February 13, 2009 by STiFU

[New Horizon]

It's not gonna happen. This ain't splinter cell, or mirrors edge. You're a Thief, not an acrobat. You get by with the basics.

 

I'll never understand why people keep missing the point of what Thief set out to do and just keep wanting to add features from everything from GTA to WOW or Super Mario.

[swordbreaker]

You're a Thief...

especially a paunchy thief. I can't escape from some guards altough I run full throttle Edited February 13, 2009 by swordbreaker

[Diego]

Thieves cannot be agile? Being able to move along edges and make a bounce of a wall is almost offensive to compare with 'gta and supermario'.

 

But it was just a suggestion, though

[New Horizon]

Thieves cannot be agile? Being able to move along edges and make a bounce of a wall is almost offensive to compare with 'gta and supermario'.

 

But it was just a suggestion, though

 

It's the concept. Regardless of the perceived significance of the action, it's a departure into more action oriented territory...like splinter cell and that's not the focus of this type of game. The player isn't meant to be an adequate fighter or runner, but shouldn't be able to hop around like a ninja. It's just not a fast paced action game. The player must use tools, like rope arrows for getting up into the rafters...and vine arrows to scale up a wall.

[Mr Mike]

I'll never understand why people keep missing the point of what Thief set out to do ...

 

Great way to sounds completely arrogant

 

Are you sure you know exactly what Thief set out to do? I would say it's a case of personal opinion and interpretation.

[Dram]

Looking at the suggestions objectively, I think shimmying across ledges would be a great addon, and could lead to some very interesting levels. If our thief can pull himself up onto a ledge (which is not exactly a trivial task in reality), then theoretically he should be able to hold himself hanging there for a while at least.

 

Of course, the main issue here is not that it would be a great idea etc, but would mean yet another feature to be on the playtest/bugfix list, and it's a long one.

 

NH is not trying to sound arrogant, he is simply tired of having to respond to similar suggestions (for example a while back we had talk of adding silent footsteps), but mainly he considers the amount of time that would have to be invested into such a feature and thus gets annoyed. At least from what I see.

 

In any case, I personally agree that wall-jumping has not place in Thief, as the thief was never shown as an agile little weasel but rather an average man who is neither built nor skinny. The ledge-shimmying is an excellent idea though, one that would be awesome to see in TDM, but I think it will have to wait till post-V1.0.

 

Please don't take offense to annoyed-sounding responses as we have been working on the mod for a good four years now and have already locked-down feature additions long ago so that we may release it soon.

[New Horizon]

Great way to sounds completely arrogant

 

Should have used more smilies I guess. I didn't intend to sound arrogant Mike, at the same time...I really don't care if it sounds arrogant. That was my honest reaction, and if that offends...sorry. For goodness sake though...there is truth behind it. Go back and read over the old thief forums. There are tons of posts about adding this thing from that game, and that feature from another. People wanted GTA style open cities, RPG factions, more action, more from this game, more from that game. Whatever you're left with at the end wouldn't be Thief...just a derivative.

 

As Dram says...shimmying along a ledge that you've gotten hold of would be acceptable, since it falls within mantling, but that opens up a whole can of coding fun! Too much work right now.

 

Yes, I do think I have a pretty good idea what Thief set out to do...the answers are right out there on the net so I'm not stating a 100% personal opinion. I'm simply reiterating what the developers said all along...the character wasn't an athlete, a master swordsman, or a killer. The character was a Thief who knew enough to stay alive, but excelled at being a Thief. There are other games that do the action thing very well...Thief was about voyeurism, patience and the skill of not being caught.

[swordbreaker]

I agree both sides. There could be add more movements.... but not idea of other games. That should be unique and suitable to thief concept. Not further.

[Mortem Desino]

Steam-ninja? I just liked how thief simply created an incredibly immersive and diverse environment to: Sneaks, Steals, Stabs, and the like.

 

Besides, acrobatics are only impressive in 3rd-person and I can't tell you how fast that perspective will get shot down!

 

Heck, if you want to shimmy along an edge, line it with a "ladder" brush and use strafe!

 

All it'd need is tidying up with a special camera animation to signify...um...shimmying.

[Dram]

Heck, if you want to shimmy along an edge, line it with a "ladder" brush and use strafe!

 

That is a good work-around yes, but the functionality should really use the same type of surfaces that mantling allows, except that you would (for example) press mantle and hold down (backwards) so that the thief only catches onto the ledge but does not climb up. It would not be a difficult feature to add, but it is the testing time that is the problem.

[Diego]

The big problem is indeed replacing the camera and using a player model. I'm against both, for this project at least.

 

There are priorities, obviously. Even if people liked this idea i'd advise against working on this sort of things right now. But since we are chatting about it, I might as well throw some ideas (the moderators may want to move this topic to some 'random chat' subforum)

 

I think the edge grabbing could be made visual by using some sort of 'ghostly hands'. Same thing with the bouncing of walls, with 'ghostly feet' hitting the wall.

 

Furthermore, I wasn't really thinking about ninja abilities.. I expect this to improve the climbing experience, wich is one important aspect of the gameplay, with more options. When the player stops in some weird ruins to plan how to get 'up there' he has more options than rope arrows and mantling.

 

New Horizon,

No offense taken I understand the immediate connection to all requests like "Garret should have a bazooka! BAZOOKA RLZ!". But as I just said, I meant to give more climbing options, thinking mainly in fun gameplay! Not making him run like the wind through mansions and disarming guards with king fu abilities.

[Mortem Desino]

Yeah, NH! Why doesn't the TDM thief have a bazooka?

 

I mean like BLAM BLAM PENG PENG PEW PEW BAD GUYS DEAD!

[New Horizon]

I think the edge grabbing could be made visual by using some sort of 'ghostly hands'. Same thing with the bouncing of walls, with 'ghostly feet' hitting the wall.

 

for me, that would create inconsistency...because those hands don't appear when climbing ropes, climbing walls, during regular mantling or opening doors. It opens up the hornets nest and introduces problems akin to a half form of body awareness.

[Diego]

It definitely wouldn't be realistic. But to hell with realism!

 

But I agree with the inconsistency.. Probably there would have to be 'ghostly body parts' on the ropes and mantling too.

[Crispy]

I'm not sure body awareness is strictly required. It would make it better, certainly. (Mirror's Edge does body awareness really really well, so rest assured it is possible. The movement feels very responsive. It has to, considering the entire game is built around being able to make accurate and precise movements.)

 

acrobatics are only impressive in 3rd-person

You haven't played Mirror's Edge, have you. (It's a game about running and performing stunning acrobatic feats, and it's in first-person and still manages to be impressive, when you can pull off all your moves speed-run-style and maintain your momentum as much as possible.)

 

I, on the other hand, have played Mirror's Edge - twice - and the idea that sprang to mind was not so much crossing it with Thief (although I agree there is potential there - just maybe not where TDM wants to go), but rather an open-world version of Mirror's Edge. (Pitch version: "Mirror's Edge meets GTA".) Run around collecting and delivering messages (and/or phat lewt that isn't strictly yours) in order to complete missions, and avoiding cops/guards in the meantime. Add a "main quest" and associated plot if you want. I think that would be pretty fun.

 

Heck - Mirror's Edge the MMO, anyone?

[Ishtvan]

That is a good work-around yes, but the functionality should really use the same type of surfaces that mantling allows, except that you would (for example) press mantle and hold down (backwards) so that the thief only catches onto the ledge but does not climb up. It would not be a difficult feature to add, but it is the testing time that is the problem.

I once looked into rewriting our current mantling code to do things like that, and it actually is a pretty difficult feature to add. It would probably take 20-40 hours of work/debugging.

[STiFU]

[...]but rather an open-world version of Mirror's Edge. (Pitch version: "Mirror's Edge meets GTA".) Run around collecting and delivering messages (and/or phat lewt that isn't strictly yours) in order to complete missions, and avoiding cops/guards in the meantime. Add a "main quest" and associated plot if you want. I think that would be pretty fun.

That's exactly what I suggested on the On-mirrors-edge.com forums. But I and a couple of others had a brief look at how the game is dealing with the levels in UnrealED and it uses a complex blockloading system (different to oblivion), which will make it really hard to design an open city. Aside from that, Mirror's Edge seems to be the slowest unreal engine 3 powered game, I've played so far. So you'd need a really big fat computer to play an open city (where the blocklevels have to be much bigger, than in original Mirror's Edge). Anyway, I still didn't finish the last speedrun, but all timetrials 3*!! ;-)

[Crispy]

Yeah, I figured you'd need to rewrite the engine from the ground up.

 

Nice work on the time trials! I think I have one 3-star and a few 2-stars. I haven't even attempted most of the levels yet... just a case of not spending much time on it.

[STiFU]

Hehe, yeah well, I played original quake 3 trickjumping a lot, so I really enjoyed the speedrunmode and timetrials. Especially, when I discovered all the nasty tricks to keep up your momentun like the three-step rule, initial momentum trick or pipejumps. Not as skilly as q3, but still fun. On many timetrials you can be like 10 seconds faster than the 3-stars-time, especially *New Edge*. But I guess we are deriving from the topic here a little. So back to you, TDM!

[atolonen]

I'm actually the most impressed with the movements I can do in Thief than with any other game I've played so far (I haven't tried Mirror's Edge). I guess it has something to do with the fact that Thief strives to be close to realism while still allowing you to move with as much freedom as you can pull off - meaning that the focus is on the player's skill rather than the character's. This combination makes at least me really appreciate it when I can pull off a combo of, for example, running along the railing, jumping from obstacle to another, avoiding arrows while doing so, and ending with a daring jump to safety to that pool 5 meters below. And even if you can't do that flawlessly, the ability to correct errors as you go is good enough. Judging from the demo missions, The Dark Mod handles this well already, and in some areas (mantling comes to mind) even better than the original Thief series.

 

The way I see it, shimmying would be nice, but not necessary because that can be substituted with allowing the player to climb on to of the ledge he would be shimmying and just walking there.

Edited February 16, 2009 by atolonen

[jdude]

Even if we had the time and energy to put in mirror's edge esque movement I'd vote against it. Never in thief have I thought "sure wish I could jump up off that wall and bounce to that other wall" (that sounded akward but you get the picture) To me thief was about sneaking rather than acrobatics. Sure we have the mantling system which is awesome but in reality all you need to mantle is upper body strength not a gym membership and years on a protein diet.

[Pollee]

If you ask any real thief, what does he need in his job, it would not be an acrobatics nor some wild jumping, becouse it is too noisy and noticeable. I don't know what movements are already included in TDM, but I thing that the most appropriate improovments would be in a creepage. I mean some silent and crafty ways how to get over obstructions without any useless exhibitions.

For example this skill is cool.

Or lower down from wall to get closer to ground was many times usefull even for me to get down from height. I don't know how to express it with my english. I mean this process, but reversed.

Also crawling on belly or crawling through a thin manhole would not be bad.

As well move hanging hand over hand along a horizontal rope or ledge is wery thievish, but I guess it might be a problem with mentioned invisible hands.

Anyway the last video on TDM webpage demonstrates, that those moves are already very impressive.

[New Horizon]

I don't know what movements are already included in TDM....

 

Grab a copy of doom 3 and try out our beta missions.