A More Robust Environment

[Ombrenuit]

While the City remains an interesting locale to explore, one of my biggest complains with the Dark Project is the lack of the environments outside of the City: the forests, the marshes, etc. I believe nature offers an interesting oppertunity for stealth and a definite atmosphere. Fog, realistic trees, water, razer grass (not just blocks! ), cat tails, insects?, storms, etc. could make for some very interesting maps. A haunted forest done right could make for one of the most memorable missions. While I imagine this has been discussed regularly, it is my request for the Dark Mod team to not neglect these aspects of the Thief world.

 

And thus I give you the screenshot that inspired this post: http://mods.moddb.com/gallery/image/18724/

 

Anyone else care to help elaborate on this topic?

[New Horizon]

We will definately try to provide as many materials as possible for FM authors to produce a wide variety of locations. I would love to see a mission that takes place in the woods.

[Springheel]

Don't worry, work on our Nature Pack has already started (although just barely, as we're still finishing off the Mansion Pack). We'll be including lots of potential for outdoor environments, not to mention rustic pagan settlements.

[Ombrenuit]

I didn't quite know where to post this, but I figured that because it had to do with nature, I might as well return it to my old thread.

 

An idea, I've designed a mission based on Chenonceau, a castle built over a river almost like a bridge. I've been thinking of water as a result because of its central role in the mission. First off, may I ask if there has been some design of water to be used in the Doom 3 engine? Will it look nice?

 

Next, I just wanted to propose something very simple that would, I think, immerse the player a little more. After the player pulls himself out of the water, droplets of water drip off his cloak for about a minute afterword. As the player looks down he can see them dripping wherever he is, and of course, he has dripping footprints. Perhaps a guard can be suspicious if he sees the water (or the footprints) in a place it doesn't belong, such as a mansion? It's simple, but I actually think it could be one of those little things that draws you in.

Edited October 22, 2005 by Ombrenuit

[Macsen]

Things like dripping footprints and bloody footprints have been discussed, I think. The main argument against them is that the player would just stand and wait until the blood or water dried off. That 'go and make yourself a cup of tea' kind of gameplay should probably be avoided.

 

The Dark Mod already has water.

[Ombrenuit]

I understood that the Dark Mod had water, otherwise I wouldn't have considered it . It's just that my main concern is that it won't look nice. In Thief, of course the graphics of the day were limiting, it was frankly ugly. My concern is that water won't be attractive, and I'm sure the Doom 3 can do much with it, but it is still a slight anxiety of mine. It is a good point with the footprints though. However, I do think the droplets would be a novel concept, and the water that drips doesn't have to alert guards.

Edited October 22, 2005 by Ombrenuit

[Macsen]

The water looks very nice. It wobbles and ripples and makes submerged objects look 'bigger' just like real water does. It's fully customizable too, so it can wobble and ribble to your heart's content. Beta mappers have also integrated waterfalls with individual droplets, rising spray, and so forth.

[Dram]

yeah, its excellent, just we have a small problem atm of the water not "warping" if looked at through glass.

 

shit, i should've mentioned it to a coder already. Yeah, Spar or Ish, please look at HeatHaze.vfp and please tell us if it's possible to make it consider wobbly crap behind a first shader. Basically, is it possible to make it consider if there's more then one shader? because currently its dumb how you can't see the distortive effects of the water through glass.

[bob_arctor]

So it can't bung a render effect on twice? I'm not surprised really, considering TDS water, which was simplified I think as they couldn't have reflections of shadows or something without massive performance drops.

Does TDM water reflect all?

[oDDity]

IF you're the sort of person who won't play the game because the water doens't look as pretty as HL2 water, then you can fuck off now. We don't need your shallow, vacuous type around here.

[sparhawk]

If HL2 can make water rfelect, so can any other renderer. It's just a matter of coding it.

[oDDity]

It would be an added extra bonus, a bit of pointless icing. No one should actually care whether the water is reflective and shiny.

[Macsen]

IF you're the sort of person who won't play the game because the water doens't look as pretty as HL2 water, then you can fuck off now. We don't need your shallow, vacuous type around here.

 

Ok, I'll just go back to Thief: TDP. It doesn't have all these great graphical leaps, but then I'm not the kid of shallow, vacuous type who likes those anyway.

[FishFace]

Just because graphics are one of the least important parts, doesn't mean they aren't important at all!

Especially if there's a mismatch in realism, then immersion goes poof. In the Dark Engine, it was all crappy, so your imagination filled in the blanks. If one bit of a super-realistic graphic engine is much below par, then you automatically notice it. I guess that's why it's so dangerous trying for good graphics.

 

Anyways, if you can make water with individual droplets in falls and suchlike, it's probably not going to be a problem!

[Dram]

aargh!! what i meant is that if you look at thw woblly effect of water through glass, the water no longer has a wobbly effect. This can be coded in heathaze.vfp, by giving it an extra check or something. But i have no idea how to do that, that's why i'm a mapper

[obscurus]

That is why it is often better to go for a somewhat stylised cartoony look than to attempt super-photorealistic graphics - it is too hard to make everything sit at the same level of realism, so it can be better to wind the graphics realism back to give immersion a boost.

[Dram]

yes true, but Thief seemed very realistic to me, thievery did not. It's more about the animations and the smoothness of the game if you ask me.

[Ombrenuit]

IF you're the sort of person who won't play the game because the water doens't look as pretty as HL2 water, then you can fuck off now. We don't need your shallow, vacuous type around here.

 

Heh, ya thats right, I'm already packing my bags now.

[oDDity]

The leetness of the water shaders do not make or break a game. Let's have a little common sense please.

It will look fine, but don't be expecting HL2 water.

[FishFace]

Sensible? Most gamers like prettiness, even if it's only hypothetical!

 

@obscurus:

 

It's a bit like Uncanny valley. If you can't hack it, you'd best just quit trying for that level. I expect there's an equivalent uncanny valley for general environments like there is for faces and other human things.

[Macsen]

That is why it is often better to go for a somewhat stylised cartoony look than to attempt super-photorealistic graphics - it is too hard to make everything sit at the same level of realism, so it can be better to wind the graphics realism back to give immersion a boost.

 

God no, it'd be almost impossible for a large group of part time modders to go for one consistent styalised 'look'. The one thing everyone that works on the Dark Mod has in common is reality, so it's safer to base your game around that. Plus you can just make textures and objects out of real photographs instead of the concept artist having to draw everything in a particular style.

 

Anyway, it already looks great, so there's not much point discussing this.

[Ombrenuit]

I understand that graphics, especially water effects, arn't everything; it was merely a point of interest. We're all still pleased by the Dark Project regardless of its graphical shortcomings. But, I think we need to consider that games are much like women, and it helps us get into the mood much more if we don't have something ugly to play with.

[Springheel]

Does TDM water reflect all?

 

I'm not sure if it does at the moment, but it is certainly possible. Example from D3W:

 

http://doom3.planet-multiplayer.de/5.56FMJ.../reflection.gif

 

The rest of the thread: http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=11813

[Dram]

shit! i shouldve thought of it already lol, you can just add a specular map and bang, pixel shaded water hehe

[Maximius]

That is why it is often better to go for a somewhat stylised cartoony look than to attempt super-photorealistic graphics - it is too hard to make everything sit at the same level of realism, so it can be better to wind the graphics realism back to give immersion a boost.

 

Ditto.

 

Until I read Macsens response, interesting, a clear example of team dynamics informing game design.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Maximius