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Springheel

Released Mission update: Spring 2012

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And tbh: TDM will never have an official campaign which is part of this mod's problem.

 

I guess bundling popular and well liked FMs with the mod right off the bat can help with this (which as I understand it is already starting to be done).

 

I think those looking for an official campaign are looking more for a set of FMs to introduce them to the mod. I think it would help if the mod came with a campaign of some kind as something we would want the player to see first, even if it's not an "official campaign" or anything like that.

 

If there is a very urgent pressing need for TDM to have an "official" set of missions or a story, I don't see much harm in picking out some well-liked mission series, calling them "official", and bundling them with the mod (with permission from the FM authors of course). If some players want a set of characters to relate to or use then the current collection of FMs has at least a couple of those that could be used in such a way.

Edited by Professor Paul1290

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I suggested adding some kind of "editor's choice" option to the missions, but that wasn't well received. I'm open to other suggestions.

Or you could just introduce it on the basis of you being the Grand Poobah of TDM. :laugh:

 

If there is a very urgent pressing need for TDM to have an "official" set of missions or a story, I don't see much harm in picking out some well-liked mission series, calling them "official", and bundling them with the mod (with permission from the FM authors of course). If some players want a set of characters to relate to or use then the current collection of FMs has at least a couple of those that could be used in such a way.

There is a set of missions which I think are very nicely polished and highlights the mod well - and that's No Honor Among Thieves. We can bicker and argue all day about which mission is the bestest and which is just the best, but for my money, NHAT is iconic. When I think of NHAT, I am thinking, "yup, that's TDM all right".


Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Sure, NHAT is great. I myself have played through it multiple times. Problem is, it has aged visually and technically and no longer represents what TDM is capable of. It was released before lots of new characters were added to the mod, like mages and females, and it can suffer poor performance in some areas like the start of mission 3.


--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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I really think Springheel should just use his skill and judgement to pick a couple of "newbie" missions, that aren't too hard and show off TDM at its best.

 

I don't think there'd be an uproar. =-P

 

There are definitely half a dozen missions that deserve a * next to their name in the downloads menu to say they are an editor's pick.


"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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You could put a color-coded 1-10 rating number on the webpage & in-game download list (hopefully with number of voters also to know how significant it is), and even better if you can vote for a rating right in-game as part of the Stat Screen, like Garrett-Loader. I was just noticing the Garrett Loader list of ratings as a very helpful thing to look at when faced with the giant list of T2 FMs.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I guess bundling popular and well liked FMs with the mod right off the bat can help with this (which as I understand it is already starting to be done).

 

I think those looking for an official campaign are looking more for a set of FMs to introduce them to the mod. I think it would help if the mod came with a campaign of some kind as something we would want the player to see first, even if it's not an "official campaign" or anything like that.

 

If there is a very urgent pressing need for TDM to have an "official" set of missions or a story, I don't see much harm in picking out some well-liked mission series, calling them "official", and bundling them with the mod (with permission from the FM authors of course). If some players want a set of characters to relate to or use then the current collection of FMs has at least a couple of those that could be used in such a way.

 

I don't either, but I doubt the rest of the team would agree with me lol.

 

I like the idea of having more of the top FMs released with the game though. We could even take it a step further and help create some nice graphics for the intro to set the tone for the mission. But that comes down to man power, which I think the original mappers would probably be happy to help with. Just an idea. :)

 

You could put a color-coded 1-10 rating number on the webpage & in-game download list (hopefully with number of voters also to know how significant it is), and even better if you can vote for a rating right in-game as part of the Stat Screen, like Garrett-Loader. I was just noticing the Garrett Loader list of ratings as a very helpful thing to look at when faced with the giant list of T2 FMs.

 

I think that would be the most ideal, however I have no idea how difficult it would actually be to implement that.

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I really think Springheel should just use his skill and judgement to pick a couple of "newbie" missions,

 

 

Well, we already have the results of last year's vote. What I'd like to see is those missions listed somehow as "community favourites" in the mission downloader.

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I think its great a lot of people are coming up with solutions and suggestions, it just shows that there is a good number of members who care. This has also been discussed extensively on the end is nigh post; I think Springheels' work on detailing Saint Lucia map, to be included in TDM 108, will be very worth it as it is a very good intro to the mod and what the game is about, specially for those not familiar with the thief universe.

 

TDM bases itself on the legacy of the Thief game. It has no story per se, it doesnt have the immersive universe Thief created and made you go through (and which inspired so much community work). It has emulated and surprassed Thief's gameplay mechanics, in a modern and good looking engine - even its antagonists, tools and enrvironment. But I think it is unfair to say simply that TDM implies that you need to have played Thief in order to enjoy the missions it offers - it has been actually a bit of the mappers fault in many missions to date to assume the player is perfectly familiar with the original games; that the character is indeed Garret and that he is gonna go in there and steal some precious stuff because it is just cool and thats what he does (for rent, for the prize, etc), and come back home afterwards. Of course Im not ignoring all the missions that actually developed a story and attempted to give the player some unique motivations, but many of the single maps so far could be interpreted as exercises on sneaking gameplay as their main (sole) focus. I dont know if this is even pertinent to the matter at hand (attract more players/mappers), but as a player myself, I would only add that an immersive experience is essential to developing ties to a given game - and if the Omen campaign is indeed to become a beacon for TDM as I feel it will, the only thing I would suggest if I could would be to allocate part of the effort in the storytelling itself, rather than world building and gameplay planning alone; players need to get to know the builders, the pagans, the nobility, the common folk, how this society lives and behaves, to feel immersed in it.

 

The freedom for mappers to create their own vision of this universe is always there anyway (noone creating missions needs to follow any existing story, but I suspect players would like to).

Edited by RPGista

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Let me sum-up how my impression of the mod developed as an outsider to start:

 

1) I wonder what cool Doom 3 mods are out there?

2) Whoa! There's some sort of Thief remake mod in the works. I remember my buddy playing that game

it was pretty friggin' cool.

3) (years later) How about that Thief mod? Oh they have a "mission"? Where is it? I can't find it on their site.

4) (a little later) Ah, now there's a "Tears of Saint Lucia" Demo. Alright, I'm installing this!!!

5) The loading screen takes forever... Ah here we go.

6) The story is a little strange. It's seems very serious, it's not that funny-good-time stealing stuff that I remember.

My motivation is a bit murky? Why do I care about this guy who is stealing from one negative authority on behalf of

another negative authority? I guess that I will understand this when more missions from come out? Or maybe

I missed something from that Thief's Den demo I couldn't find?

7) OK, I'm playing this but it's murdering my poor Radeon 9500. I can tell there's tons of potential here.

I need to wait till I've got better hardware.

8) (year later) I've got a new video card. What are some things I can try? Oh yeah, I'll bet TDM will

play better. Lets see

9) HOLY SHIT. THERE'S THIS WHOLE MISSION LOADER THING! LOOK AT ALL THESE MISSIONS!

10) OK. What order do I play these in? Will any of these help me understand what that whole ToLS

thing was all about? Ah, it seems they're all from different authors. Look at this RTTC mission it

is blowing my mind. I can totally see myself climbing those buildings up into the windows like I

saw my buddy do all those years ago.

11) Rats. That mission kills my system worse than ToLS did...

12) Ah. The Outpost! \m/ \m/ This is friggin awesome! It's all thieving all the time. I'm not involved in

some questionable alliance with a dark figure. I AM the questionable figure. It's all gleeful.

13) Holy shit. Trapped! This escape sequence is so great!!!

14) Etc...

 

I'm probably a lone soldier here but I was drawn to TDM partly in-spite of ToLS.

 

I didn't like the idea of helping a rival clergy damage another church.

 

Not because I had any sympathy for this sham church and it's relic.

It was because I didn't like helping another corrupt clergy achieve his

ends. I'd rather have all the blame for looting on my character's motivation

then leave with the bad taste that I've helped another scumbag oppressive

religious authority to gain dominion. If there were yet another reason for

that transaction, it would sit better with me.

 

It is a beautiful mission with exemplary play and architecture. The

story is well written but it just doesn't grab me and motivate me to

carry on.

 

I'm glad it's being included with the mod but I'm not sure it will demystify TDM.

 

There will still likely be questions about the "story" of TDM because of strange

motivations in ToLS.

 

 

(What needs to happen is a true sequel to ToLS. Something that brings the story

arc to where the appeal and motivation are rebuilt.

 

Maybe...

 

The dark figure you helped in that mission predictably discards all those

who helped him achieve his new stature (including you) and you wind-up

imprisoned along with the head of St Lucia. You cook-up an escape plan

and revenge plot.

 

Thereby the karma of you helping the bad guy in ToLS comes to fruition

yet you can spite the karma a little by doing this "revenge mischief" and still

have some redeeming quality for taking down the "bad guy". etc)

 

 

A campaign is not needed per se. Just a story. It could be self contained in one

mission of spread out over two or three. Or it could even be all in text or as

a video (like an extended mission briefing).

There just needs to be a starting point where the player can imagine

"the further adventures of so and so". Write a script, have some top notch artist

draw some stills, narrate it, and your golden. Then mission authors will

try to build those things they saw in the story and make it come to life mission by

mission. Put that up at Moddb and folks will eat it up. Hell they visit mods

that have no plausible release in reality because they are drawn to the concept

presented by the "mod author". A real working mod with an elaborate story?

They'd go crazy.

 

People will play a Ghostbusters mod that just has "driving the Ecto 1" because they are so

into the idea of the story that they just want some small way to participate in it. Give the players a story and they won't care

how it's implemented in-game. Once they are drawn to the narrative they will build that

narrative in their own play experiences.

 

The big questions about TDM from an outsider POV are kinda like the questions you'd have walking

into a tavern in a new town. Who are folks? What are they into? What do they believe?

Should I stick around or get outta dodge? A story would tell them what TDM intends to convey.

What the team wants to see, what they admire, where they want the stories to go.

 

The Universe wiki helps but it's far less compelling than a story.

 

 

All this said, there are Thief fans and there will be new ones as long as the gaming press

makes stories about the revered golden age of gaming and folks like Yatzee keep bringing-up

the game.

 

Anyone familiar with Thief should pickup the TDM vibe without any trouble.

 

It comes down to how dependent you want to be on "trickle-down" traffic from the Thief games.


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Just thinking aloud...

 

One thing that's key to attract a wider audience is the experience people have installing TDM. I think most of us are a little biased, I mean, we are used to jump through loops to make a game work. Normal people don't.

 

There are surely many potential players who just can't be bothered with mods at all -- since the requirement of installing two softwares for one purpuse is considered "too much trouble". Going standalone would adress that.

 

From there on it could be an option to conquer all these new fancy distribution channels that copy the app-store model. There's the Ubuntu Software Center for example. I don't know how to put something in there (guess it needs packaging and becoming part of the multiverse repository). But I know from the user perspective nothing beats hitting the install button and jumping right into the game (works right now for titles like openArena). And I can tell from the comments people leave with their ratings that quite some of them don't have a clue about how to trigger install scripts from within a terminal -- but still enjoy a good game. TDM would actually be quite competitive within this platform.

 

Or maybe it can be turned into a metro app...

 

A campaign is not needed per se. Just a story. It could be self contained in one

mission of spread out over two or three. Or it could even be all in text or as

a video (like an extended mission briefing).

 

Yes. The Dark Machinima! I would like it.

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Well, we already have the results of last year's vote. What I'd like to see is those missions listed somehow as "community favourites" in the mission downloader.

Another nice tag to the missions in the downloader would also be "contest winner".

That should appeal and reward people participating.

 

And to have not only cover the past releases what about a regularly "map of the year" voting for all missions released in a year?

 

One thing that's key to attract a wider audience is the experience people have installing TDM

An important thing in that regard is also the look and feel of the menu. It is the first thing a player is confronted with in the game. The Thief 1+ 2 start screes are splendid and got me hooked immediately. Thief 3 was shitty as hell, really a BIG letdown made me thinking: "Hopefully the gameplay is better than that!". When I first seen TDM menu I thought: "Holy shit, now THAT is great! ... if the gameplay is like the atmosphere and production value of the menu, I'm in for a treat!" ... The look and feel of the start menu set the tone and is definitely very well done to hook new people what gameplay and stories to expect in the missions!

 

Missions are up to the authors. That the quality varies is to be expected and always subjective. Tags like above might be of help to new or casual players which mission best suited to start with.

 

But what about the universe? ... Some FM's feel more connected than others. Each FM author has his own vision of the world. That is the nature of the beast of a game mod like this. It is both a weakness and strength to the mod! So question can be: Is there any (better) way to increase the feel of the universe outside individual missions?? ...

 

The Universe wiki helps but it's far less compelling than a story.

... in addition to that:

 

Digging through wiki entries is not the first action what people do that become interested to the mod. They want to push the play button right away. If they like what they see they'll dig for more. Otherwise they dismiss it and will try some next game.

 

Continuing brainstorming ideas: ... An ingame universe intro may help setting the scene. I agree with nbohr1more. A narrated text with some nice drawings like in Thief would be sufficient enough. We have talented artist. Also outside the TDM team like Glyth Seeker and others. That could be bundled St. Lucia or Training Mission. Or even better in the TDM menu itself ?!

Edited by fllood

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

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Not because I had any sympathy for this sham church and it's relic.

It was because I didn't like helping another corrupt clergy achieve his

ends. I'd rather have all the blame for looting on my character's motivation

then leave with the bad taste that I've helped another scumbag oppressive

religious authority to gain dominion. If there were yet another reason for

that transaction, it would sit better with me.

 

Not all missions are going to satisfy everyone's taste, obviously. But I think ToSL is the perfect introduction to the world of TDM. Your motivation is not to "help" anyone (in fact, your employer is left intentionally vague), it's to get payed for your skills. Your character doesn't steal for fun; this is your job. It also shows that you are skilled enough to have a reputation. Your task is morally ambiguous, but so is the protagonist (whoever you want to assume he is) and the TDM setting in general.

 

The mission has plenty of setting information (and I've squeezed in more for 1.08) about the Builder religion, pagans, and the vast difference between the upper and lower classes (the opening section of town is dirt poor, and the church is full of riches).

 

(What needs to happen is a true sequel to ToLS. Something that brings the story

 

While I generally agree with you about the power of sequels, I don't think ToSL is particularly well-suited to one. The story is pretty much complete by the end of it; and neither the location or the characters could really support further attention. The only unanswered questions are whether the 'miracle' was real and who your employer was. The first should remain unanswered. The second could have plenty of answers--is it indeed the jealous priest of a nearby church? Or a mage who thinks the shard has useful magic in it? Or someone looking for a convenient way to destroy evidence of fraud? While any answer could be the springboard of another mission, that mission wouldn't really add anything to ToSL other than a sense of continuity (which could be a valid end in itself, I suppose).

 

There just needs to be a starting point where the player can imagine

"the further adventures of so and so". Write a script, have some top notch artist

draw some stills, narrate it, and your golden

 

We had, early in development, intended to include a short video intro like TDS. I'm still interested in the idea, but where would you imagine this being displayed? If it's a short intro video of about 30 seconds...how much info could be communicated in that space?

 

A story would tell them what TDM intends to convey. What the team wants to see, what they admire, where they want the stories to go.

 

That assumes there is an agreement about what the team wants to see. :) Getting everyone to agree on setting information has always been like herding cats. Hell, we couldn't even agree on a name for the protagonist. Of course, one small benefit of the development team shrinking is that it's now easier to reach an agreement.

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Thanks for the reply.

 

I was off on a strange tangent there just trying to free-form my own first impressions and at the

end I was not sure how much useful insight could be gleaned from that rant.

 

I lost track of another point I wanted to bring-up.

 

 

Carrots.

 

 

While mission building is it's own reward, authors are more likely to stick around

if there is something more for them.

 

When I read the old Beta Mapper applications, it seemed that many of those folks were hoping

to be assigned work to do. If no "official" TDM campaign, story, etc can be agreed upon so

that those folks can be assigned duties then perhaps they can instead be assigned the

task of helping key members' missions come to fruition or build missions to highlight

parts of the TDM universe. There was a small ground-swell of support to have

a "Faction" contest to help with this but it seems to have dwindled a bit. If Team members

said "we need a mission about this faction with these attributes" and made sure

that the contributing mapper's work was listed as an "official mod asset" then that would

be a nice carrot.

 

Of course, contests with real prizes (etc) could be even more effective but I was just

looking at what seemed like a lost opportunity. By all appearances, it seems it was a one-time

offer to get missions for the 1.0 release and in the end the missions were considered

the work of each author rather than "part of the mod". If you kept a stable of high

quality mappers who made TDM branded missions on a regular basis that would certainly

be a draw for any mapper aspiring to make a name for themselves. Right now, if

a mapper makes an excellent TDM mission it could possibly be lost in the shuffle

while if their work were labeled with "TDM official mapper" (etc) they could use that for

their professional portfolio or just as a badge of pride.


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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In my own case it's as simple as I'm at that age where it's genuinely hard to find time to do Dark Mod stuff; and even I have a big queue of stuff I'd like to do, at least 3 maps, the Security Zone feature, some models... As opposed to before I started law school when I had all the time in the universe to do, & did, a ton of stuff for the TTLG community.

 

There's an age demographic I think -- upper highschool, undergrad students and recent graduates -- like the 17-25 group where they're old enough to be mature & able, have a lot of energy to do stuff, and not so crazy busy yet so the time to do it, and I think it's a sweetspot for getting people into a hobby for life. (I mean I feel like I'm still doing FM mapping I started when I was still in undergrad)... I think that's a good demographic for pulling productive people in for the long haul, and I think it's about ~10 years over the actual demographic we have haha. But if we wanted new blood, that's a good group to shoot for, I mean making it feel like a comfortable & fun place for them.

 

But I don't know of that spells anything different in how we brand ourselves & do outreach though... We're good just sending the message it's a fun game for everybody and let whoever is interested come as they may. Lord knows we're very lucky to have some folk(s) in the grayman demographic as well. :)


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Posting from my phone:

 

I dont tjink a sequel to ToSL would be a good idea it has a self contained vibe all over it and tbh it was small. As th original author of that map u can bet i paid a ton of attention to the feeback i read about it and u can expect much more and better from omens which i personally have been working om since the release of ToSL. The amount of time sunk into it at this point is why i dont think any future ofixial campaigns are possible. But even of it isnt offial i can guarantee just by ToSL and RTTC feedback that the Omen maps will blow everyone away from a detail, size, creative and architectual point of view.

 

So hard to type on a phone!

 

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I'm glad to hear that you are ambitious enough to trump ToLS. :)

 

I must qualify (again) that it's a top notch mission!

 

I personally just didn't want to "become" a thief who would

take money from a shadowy figure who would likely betray him. It made me feel gullible or short-sighted.

Even if you don't care about the consequences of your work as a Thief, you should have a sense of

self-preservation and working for a powerful figure who would employ you to do such work seems to be

counter to that instinct.

 

If I were taking a job from the Thieve's Guild, well... they aren't a sanctioned and powerful part of the

oppressive society. They can't wrap their influence and tendrils around your life (easily). A powerful clergyman

can and probably would do such a thing (especially to erase the evidence of how he came to power).

 

I couldn't imagine myself in the role of someone who would "go for it".

 

If anything, if I took on such a job I would ensure that both my employer and victim were "handled" in some

way where I came-out on top.

Yes, you could say that this job would lead to referrals for more work but the kind of person who would

arrange such a job is unlikely to ever speak about to anybody and (again) erase whomever accomplished

it.

 

But I wont continue to offer my pointless personal criticisms about this fine mission.

 

It's beautifully constructed.

It plays well.

I'm looking forward to the improvements to it in 1.08

 

I just didn't get why I would "want to be the protagonist" in that scenario and it's

probably my own personal hangup but I thought I would point it out nonetheless

because I've seen some feedback refer to TDM as dry or humorless (etc) over

at TTLG and I personally think this mission is hard to hook into emotionally.

 

If some story touches were added to indicate more about the protagonist character

himself, maybe that would offset the problem of having to live with that motivation

conundrum. We would become more invested in why this player wants to participate

in this caper.

 

I can't speak to what story touch-ups Springheel is working on but if they are of the

quality of The Builder's Influence I'm sure they'll be good.

 

No need to feel you've fallen short on any marks with ToLS, Jdude. I just wanted to offer my

personal take on how the story and premise affected my initial impression of TDM.

You'll notice in my progression of TDM awareness, ToLS still had the effect of driving me

to find-out more about the story and TDM.


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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No need to feel you've fallen short on any marks with ToLS, Jdude. I just wanted to offer my

personal take on how the story and premise affected my initial impression of TDM.

 

It's ok, you can put any failings in the story on my shoulders. :)

 

 

I personally just didn't want to "become" a thief who would

take money from a shadowy figure who would likely betray him.

 

What reason would you have to think the figure would (or even could) betray you? You never actually deal directly with him, only the "messenger" that represents him. There's no real reason to assume he even knows who the messenger hired. I guess he could theoretically stiff you for the other half of the money, but then you don't have to turn over the shard that he wants. Seems like a typical underworld business transaction to me. Anyway, I don't want to try to argue you into liking something you don't like, but ToSL was the top-ranked mission in the community vote last year, so it obviously has some appeal. :)

 

Your point about the protagonist is well-taken, but ToSL was created before we had decided on a protagonist.

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I never really had any opinion on the story's content, however I did enjoy the structure, like way it was told and its creativity. I liked how it wasn't the same old: "I need money for rent; I don't like X, so I'm going to frame him; There's a rich place I can rob to retire, I have an informant blah blah blah etc etc. ToSL's story was unique and well though out. I never found a spot where I thought it didn't make sense.

 

Nbohr1more I think you should continue your criticism and you can PM me suggestions if you'd like. I will not take it personally at all; it will help make a stronger campaign. I love feedback.

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That background detail about the proxy who arranges the deal would be a cool personal narrative feature. You could even have the protagonist ponder the proxy's motivation as he would surely be in the greatest danger...


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I`d actually like to be exposed to the proxy and his message\deal as part of the mission...

 

How would that work? The message laid out in the briefing is fairly straightforward--here's what my boss wants done, here's half the loot, you'll get the other half when we get the shard. I'm not sure what else could be done in the mission with that, other than having to actually deliver the shard at the end. That would require a whole lot more map though, and I'm not sure what it would add in terms of gameplay.

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Delay presenting the briefing.

 

Have a small exploratory area in a scary part of town then a cut-scene

of some sort (images, in-game, etc) showing the transaction. Then have the

player read the actual note with instructions and make observations about

the background details.

 

Yes, that's probably a bit much given your deadlines but maybe in the future?

Edited by nbohr1more

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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