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Springheel

TDM NEW MAPPERS WORKSHOP

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Springheel, on 05 May 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

So, anyone still working on these?

 

I've been trying to get back into it. I watched (most of) your videos about making A Matter of Hours, and realized that almost every aspect of mapmaking makes perfect sense while I watch it, and then when I look away none of it does. :P Might rewatch a few and see if something sticks. They've honestly been useful, thank you. :)

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Because in mystery novels, the first suspect is almost certainly never the murderer. No matter how much unmovable evidence there is, it will all be smashed in pieces by the wrath of the remaining number of pages of the story.

 

-"The Evil Spirit of the Zushi Clan" from Virtual Carnal Pleasure by Yamada Fuutarou

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I'm really keen to get back into the Dark Mod and I plan to follow through these videos and produce a little mission! I've already watched most of Sotha's bakery job series and built myself a little test room so I know that everything's set up and working.

 

I just have a question for Springheel, if you're still happy to act as a sounding-board: how difficult would it be to create a guard patrol that goes sort of like this:

 

 

 

- Sleep in a chair for x minutes

- Wake up and take a key from the table he's sleeping at

- Walk upstairs to a locked room

- Unlock the door and enter. Patrol the room a little

- Exit the room and lock the door

- Back downstairs

- Place the key on the table

- Back to sleep

 

The main bits I'm uncertain of are the interaction with the key (placing it on the table) and unlocking the door. The mission I've got in mind hinges on the player's access to that room! And of course if the key is gone when the guard wakes up I'd like to have him raise the alarm.

 

 

Edited by crabmusket
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Most of what you propose can be done fairly easily.

 

The tricky bit is interacting with the key. If you need an actual key entity (that the player could steal and use) then you'd have to come up with a way to make the key disappear and reappear when the AI interacts with it. This can be done but it's not a beginner level thing...I'd have to look up how to do it myself.

 

Having the AI react to the key being stolen can be done as well: http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Alert_%26_Suspicion_Triggers#Making_AI_Notice_a_Missing_Object

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I think the easiest way would be with a simple script that is triggered at the end of the animation (this is possible with a trigger entity as a target on the path entity) that simply toggles the key hidden and unhidden. I would have to test this myself, but I think this is easier than trying to achieve the same effect through other ways. When stealing the key is set as an objective, you can change the path of the guard through that and let him raise the alarm.

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Thanks for the feedback both of you! That support for missing objects seems really detailed, and perfect for some things I want to do. Maybe I'll skip the interaction between the guard and the key for now.

 

Also, I forgot to say - I'm really impressed at both this video series and Sotha's. It's awesome to have such high-quality, detailed, and recent tutorials! Thanks everyone for all the work that's been put into helping FM authors :).

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I think, if you put the key in a position on the guard's hip that can be reached, while he is sleeping, this would mostly have the same effect: give the player an opportunity to steal it. Of course, this would not be the only opportunity unless you plan the patrols very carefully, but even this should be doable.

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Leaks are incredibly annoying, and yet again possibly a reason why I might set map building down for months again. I lose 90% of the zeal toward map building when I get leaks, as trying to see what is wrong and fix them is a nightmare. I put seals around what I decipher as *maybe* the problem but *not sure why exactly but do it anyways* ... which sometimes resolves the problem, but often not. And if my actions accidentally resolve somehow, another red line will likely pop up somewhere else that also doesn't make sense.

 

Bottom line: The pointfile red lines are incredibly vague. I can build seal brush after seal brush, seal box after seal box, yet the red lines still seep out somehow, somewhere, some way. I wonder if it's possible to someday make the red lines more precise... more specific... more explanatory... and maybe give some messaging as to what the engine is seeing as the problem?

 

Maybe through experience I will eventually find them to be incredible and beautiful... the best feature of DarkRadiant(?) But as a newbie, they are about as clear as mud in what they point to and try to say... resulting in sealing nightmares. I feel like I just spin my wheels for hours when leaks occur.

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The lines go from the origin of an entity to the void. Somewhere along that path is the leak. I agree that sometimes these lines do not take the shortest path and run through huge parts of the map, but if you follow the lines and look careful at each transition between two rooms, you should be able to find the leak. Just keep in mind, that the leak is (usually) not directly at the end or the beginning of the line, but somewhere on the way.

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Following pointlines is annoying even for vets, so you're not alone. The line does bounce around annoying inside the map, but once it reaches the void is just goes straight. The easier route is to start at the end of the line that is already in the void, and then follow it back to see how it got out of your map.

 

Don't forget to hide all entities when you're looking around--they just get in the way.

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Thanks! Those info nuggets should help, and I will take another look at it this weekend

 

So, if I understand correctly, don't worry about the line bouncing all over, ricocheting a few times... just wait for its final straight line, and follow only *its* path backward to where it, apparently, got through? (I.e., all the bouncing angles before then are pretty much irrelevant.) I'm pretty sure this is what I've been doing, but confirmation is good. I will re-read this thread regarding my seal questions and your answers, too, as I know I've struggled with it since the beginning.

Edited by Darkness_Falls

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Yes, all the bouncing is irrelevant.

 

It's not guaranteed that it won't bounce once it gets out of your map (see example below), but generally speaking it should do it less.

 

If you get stuck with any particular leak, I can always look at the map for you and point out what's happening.

post-9-0-75919600-1532188988_thumb.jpg

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Thanks! Those info nuggets should help, and I will take another look at it this weekend

 

So, if I understand correctly, don't worry about the line bouncing all over, ricocheting a few times... just wait for its final straight line, and follow only *its* path backward to where it, apparently, got through? (I.e., all the bouncing angles before then are pretty much irrelevant.) I'm pretty sure this is what I've been doing, but confirmation is good. I will re-read this thread regarding my seal questions and your answers, too, as I know I've struggled with it since the beginning.

 

Another thing to is after the pointfile is present in dark radiant you can skip between the points drawn by pressing "CTRL+SHIFT+K" to goto the next leakpoint and "CTRL+SHIFT+L" to go back to a prior leak point, that will basically follow the red leak line through your map and can make it a lot easier when tracking down where the leak occurs exactly.

 

And one more technique i've learned to help combat leaks, after you have tried to dmap and get the leak error scroll up in the console a little bit and you'll see blue text that reads "Leak on entity # " and then a number, well if you copy down that number and then go back into darkradiant and in the top bar click "Map" and then "Find Brush" just enter the entity number from the console in the top field and press ok, that will select the entity that is first interacting with the void in darkradiant and your leak should be close by depending on how your scene is built of course. Sometimes i've run into odd things like all entities are within brush work but their origin point is out in the void, and this method is fast at detecting such a problem.

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  • Another thing to is after the pointfile is present in dark radiant you can skip between the points drawn by pressing "CTRL+SHIFT+K" to goto the next leakpoint and "CTRL+SHIFT+L" to go back to a prior leak point, that will basically follow the red leak line through your map and can make it a lot easier when tracking down where the leak occurs exactly.
  • And one more technique i've learned to help combat leaks, after you have tried to dmap and get the leak error scroll up in the console a little bit and you'll see blue text that reads "Leak on entity # " and then a number, ...
  • Didn't know that. How did you find that out? Could be useful, indeed.
  • The entity listed there is actually where the red point file line starts.

@Darkness_falls: If you are running into leaks all too often there is probably room for improvement in regards to your mapping practice. If you found a leak try to figure out why it occoured so you can avoid this in the future. This will definetely save you a lot of nerves. I remember that leaks caused me some headaches, too back when I started mapping. Nowadays they are not really a problem anymore.

 

What is definetely useful is to create filters both for entities and patches (both don't seal) and bind them to keyboard shortcuts. This way you can filter them out fast and check your sealing geometry. Note that there are some materials, especially translucent ones and decals, that don't seal either, even when used on brushes.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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I finally successfully de-leaked my map, so I can move forward again, lol. What really helped was re-watching Lesson 5, as Springheel does a lot of sealing in the latter half of it... and changing decorative brushes to func_static was the ultimate blessing that helped me see a few gaps I had more clearly.

 

Once I got those squared away, I thought all would be well, then somehow the ceiling of my player equipment room that is off in no-man's-land got deleted so there was a leak there. I was confused at first, since there was no line to be found in the rooms I was building. But I remembered there's that player equipment stuff far, far away. Took a quick look, and sure enough, there was the red line, and a ceiling missing :P

 

Thanks Obsttorte! That's encouraging to know. I agree there's much room for improvement in my sealing work. The words here from everyone, and Lesson 5 goodness, etc. makes me hopeful that it will become easier over time :) I'm embarrassed to say I only have a main room with decorations, candles, lights, fireplace, etc.... a hallway with a door in-between... a secret room... some ambient music playing... some customized moonlight color thru windows... some readables... some loot... and the first room duplicated (inaccessible at the moment).

 

I think I have most of the basics down now, so building out and adding rooms should go easier. I will add another room or two, then do some outdoor area. Sorry I am only this far in the process, but life tends to get busy, and other priorities and interests yank at me. I might try to make an upstairs or downstairs room as one of my rooms to build.

Edited by Darkness_Falls
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No worries...the benefit of video tuts is that they are always there when you're ready for them. :)

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  • Didn't know that. How did you find that out? Could be useful, indeed.
  • The entity listed there is actually where the red point file line starts.
@Darkness_falls: If you are running into leaks all too often there is probably room for improvement in regards to your mapping practice. If you found a leak try to figure out why it occoured so you can avoid this in the future. This will definetely save you a lot of nerves. I remember that leaks caused me some headaches, too back when I started mapping. Nowadays they are not really a problem anymore.

 

What is definetely useful is to create filters both for entities and patches (both don't seal) and bind them to keyboard shortcuts. This way you can filter them out fast and check your sealing geometry. Note that there are some materials, especially translucent ones and decals, that don't seal either, even when used on brushes.</p>

I figured it out by going through all of the available keyboard shortcuts.

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Getting more used to the controls/hotkeys, which makes map-making quite a bit easier and a lot more fun! Such a powerful map authoring tool. Had a good time building a vent tunnel to the main room of my secret area, and making it a more refined area with proper walls/ceiling and trim. (It was just going into an unfinished area before, where you could see sealing geo and the back side of walls from a different room.)

 

The ductwork tunnel I chose (one with a bend in it) had a weird trianglular chunk missing. Is that normal? It doesn't show up in the editor. I had to build some brushes on the other side of it (wood boards) so it wouldn't reveal the blank room through it. See screenshots.

 

Also, for stairs, should I just cut a chunk out of the ceiling to make a hole that leads up to an upstairs room? See screenshot.

 

I'm also tossing in a view of the main (first room) I built a while back.

post-36-0-99793600-1532321958_thumb.jpg

post-36-0-73566300-1532321965_thumb.jpg

post-36-0-84439800-1532321983_thumb.jpg

post-36-0-53402600-1532321988_thumb.jpg

Edited by Darkness_Falls
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The missing tris thing is a known issue. It sometimes happens especially on bend patches. Sometimes it helps to merge several such func_statics together or to seperate them. If nothing helps, you can always export them as models and use those instead. Models don't suffer that issue.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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The ductwork tunnel I chose was a prefab model in the dark mod library of assets. Are you saying I can ungroup it and do some stuff to fix it? I will try to understand better what you're saying when I have DarkRadiant in front of me :) Thank you for the advice!

 

Also, tangent here: is there a way to use a local axis for actions (i.e., the axis of the object or brush you've selected)? I duplicated a room, then (from a top-down view) rotated it to about 45 degree angle. As I recall, when I selected and tried to extend a brush using the QE (q) tool, the brush would only move along the typical 90-degree (grid patterned) axis; so, it was moving the brush edge at a funky angle (relative to how it was originally constructed) and, thus, screwing up my room shape. Seems odd that I wouldn't be able to make and edit the size of a rotated room very easily. I assume it's my lack of knowledge than a tool limitation.

Edited by Darkness_Falls

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The issue with triangles disappearing like that is something I've never seen until recently.

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I have also suffered the missing tris in my mapping, it's not a recent issue in my experience as I've seen it multiple times over the last 3 years. Usually just messing around with your brushes/patches will fix it. I sometimes have to make a small gap since touching brushes at different angles tend to produce this (most often brush stairs). Not sure why it happens or how to make a permanent fix but if all else fails go with Obsttorte's suggestion and make the func statics into a model instead.

 

Springheel: I loved your videos you made about using the modules. Any chance we can get a new set of vids for the new 2.06 modules, especially the church set? Those things confuse me a bit, so I'm sure others are scratching their heads too.


My Fan Missions:

   Series:                                                                           Standalone:

Chronicles of Skulduggery 1: Pearls and Swine                     The Night of Reluctant Benefaction

Chronicles of Skulduggery 2: A Precarious Position              Langhorne Lodge

Chronicles of Skulduggery 3: Sacricide [WIP]

 

 

 

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Springheel: I loved your videos you made about using the modules. Any chance we can get a new set of vids for the new 2.06 modules, especially the church set? Those things confuse me a bit, so I'm sure others are scratching their heads too.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that, but I certainly could if it would be useful. What kinds of things would you want me to cover?

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The issue with triangles disappearing like that is something I've never seen until recently.

As Bienie wrote this is an old issue and you probably only had luck not stumbling into it. I've seen this happening as far as I can remember.

 

If I am not completely wrong this is most probably some sort of precision or processing error, causing the engine to consider the triangle in question as deformed (all three vertices are on the same line, so they don't form a triangle) and discard it. You can see that it happens more often with long and thin triangles having a bad condition (that's a mathematical term, you can google it if you like :) ) I am not a houndret precent sure on this, though.

 

 

The ductwork tunnel I chose was a prefab model in the dark mod library of assets. Are you saying I can ungroup it and do some stuff to fix it? I will try to understand better what you're saying when I have DarkRadiant in front of me :) Thank you for the advice!

 

 

Patches and Brushes get cut up on where the hit each other, but this happens on a per entity base. So worldspawn does so as well as each func_static seperately. It is not about the grouping feature but about which Brushes and Patches belong to one func_static. If you merge several fs or split one up into several ones this will most likely change the way this cutting happens, resulting in a different set of tris generated. With some luck those are of a better condition and do not cause the issue.

 

Models don't suffer the issue as the engine does not discard (remove) triangles belonging to them in difference to what happens to the tris that get processed during dmapping-

 

 

Also, tangent here: is there a way to use a local axis for actions (i.e., the axis of the object or brush you've selected)? I duplicated a room, then (from a top-down view) rotated it to about 45 degree angle. As I recall, when I selected and tried to extend a brush using the QE (q) tool, the brush would only move along the typical 90-degree (grid patterned) axis; so, it was moving the brush edge at a funky angle (relative to how it was originally constructed) and, thus, screwing up my room shape. Seems odd that I wouldn't be able to make and edit the size of a rotated room very easily. I assume it's my lack of knowledge than a tool limitation.

For more complex manipulation you probably want to switch to vertex mode, select the vertices in question and move them. There are also modes for facet and edge manipulation. I would recommend to not alter sets of brush- and patchwork consisting of dozens of brushes and parches though, as this can be error prone. ;)

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Hmm, I hadn't thought of that, but I certainly could if it would be useful. What kinds of things would you want me to cover?

 

Well at first I was confused as to how to use the domed ceiling modules in conjunction with the walls, but I think I figured it out finally. Maybe others are still confused though. I also don't quite understand how to build exteriors and getting a good transition between inside and out. Just a video in which you make a basic church while using all the different module pieces would be perfect though!


My Fan Missions:

   Series:                                                                           Standalone:

Chronicles of Skulduggery 1: Pearls and Swine                     The Night of Reluctant Benefaction

Chronicles of Skulduggery 2: A Precarious Position              Langhorne Lodge

Chronicles of Skulduggery 3: Sacricide [WIP]

 

 

 

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Is there a way to ungroup prefabs? I want just one of the cubes in this section, for example, but the section is three cubes long and seems indivisible. I wonder the same for Springheel's prefab mansion doorways. Sometimes I want to take one of the columns in the prefab doorway and translate it over, but, again, it seem indivisible.

post-36-0-53026200-1533010821_thumb.jpg

Edited by Darkness_Falls

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