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Blackjack needing lots of space


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#1 Dragofer

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 09:32 AM

Something of a hindrance I ran into again recently while making new ship designs is TDM's stiff requirement for ceiling height to avoid that the blackjack is deflected.

 

I've tested the absolute minimum to be 104 units, with the safe minimum being 120 units in case the player is looking up a little. Every 1.1 units is an inch, so the blackjack needs 9 feet or 2.7m of clear space to work.

 

In terms of ship design it'd be a godsend if this were less stringent, because at the moment I'm, for example, only getting 2 decks out of ships that realistically should have 3 decks. Other situations are also affected, such as blackjacking under hanging lamps or doorframes, or making other cramped spaces.

 

Four ideas for possible ways to solve this

1) let weapons ignore worldspawn like they did in Thief. Ideally this would be accompanied by a new spawnarg for entities that they shouldn't collide with weapons.
2) make the blackjack less aggressive to surfaces that aren't AI heads. Maybe it's possible to use a second smaller collision box for non-head surfaces?
3) reduce the blackjack's vertical arc.

4) make the blackjack's collision box move in a straight line rather than arcing.



#2 Springheel

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 10:09 AM

It's not like hitting the ceiling was part of the intent of the original design; it's a side effect of using an animation based system.  We have talked before about redesigning the blackjack so that it doesn't rely on animations.  Basically you would do a trace from the player to the AI's head at the moment the blackjack was swung and if the trace was unobstructed and within the right distance/angles, the KO would be successful.

 

It's just an issue of manpower.



#3 Judith

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 10:10 AM

IMO it would be easier to make ships slightly bigger. I think that it's quite rare that player tools or abilities are changed to match the environment, typically it's the other way around, because it might feel too noticeable or inconsistent to players.


Edited by Judith, 22 May 2018 - 10:10 AM.


#4 Abusimplea

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 02:27 PM

IMO it would be easier to make ships slightly bigger. I think that it's quite rare that player tools or abilities are changed to match the environment, typically it's the other way around, because it might feel too noticeable or inconsistent to players.

Getting the ability to use the blackjack in a doorframe would be great though. Also, cramped spaces really fit a steampunk-medieval setting very well and add to the (feeled) tension of beeing a burglar.



#5 Judith

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 01:22 AM

I think it's more a matter of a gampeplay and the impression, rather than real measurements though. Dishonored is steampunkish, while it uses big vertical spaces, so you can play around with Blink. Even the "cramped" spaces are quite wide, if you take a closer look. This way AI won't get stuck on corridor geometry, and players can hide in a corner while a guard passes them by. Blackjacking feels pretty good in TDM now (I think it was harder several versions earlier), but I didn't know it needs that much space :)


Edited by Judith, 23 May 2018 - 01:41 AM.


#6 Judith

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 03:37 AM

Out of curiosity, I checked it myself, placing a ceiling at 80, 96, 112, and 128. Looking straight I always hit the ceiling at 80 and 96. I need to look slightly upwards to hit the ceiling at 112. At 128 I don't reach the ceiling. That said, 128 doesn't feel like 2,7 m, since I can hit it with my head when I jump. More like 2 m – 2,20 m. I guess a lot depends on texture scale here, and maybe on the FOV as well.



#7 Dragofer

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 08:51 AM

I think it's more a matter of a gampeplay and the impression, rather than real measurements though.


Certainly, a lot can be done with proportions and style. Still, a rework like Springheel suggested would, for one solve the gameplay issue where players accidentally hit other objects, for the other, while I agree it's possible to make cramped-looking spaces already now, it can be argued there's more potential in dimensions smaller than the current limit.


That said, 128 doesn't feel like 2,7 m, since I can hit it with my head when I jump. More like 2 m – 2,20 m. I guess a lot depends on texture scale here, and maybe on the FOV as well.


I get where you're coming from with this, but objectively speaking the AIs are a bit over 80 units and look like they might be 1.7-1.8m (thanks to innovations in agriculture by the Inventor's Guild?), so 120 units would have to be in the area of 2.7m


It's not like hitting the ceiling was part of the intent of the original design; it's a side effect of using an animation based system.


I was thinking of making a bugtracker entry for this, though #4289 might already be covering this? It refers to this thread in the devs forum in its description.
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#8 Springheel

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 09:02 AM

Yes, that's the thread I was thinking of.





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