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The current sorting was always confusing to me. It was now on this thread that I finally understood what's going on there. I tend to lean on option 2. I could live with option 3, but I prefer 2. I think it looks cleaner, too.

Welcome to the Dark Mod forums MarsManon! Thank you very much for the kind words about SLL, it's always nice to hear We all worked real hard on bringing Grayman's map to life and I'm glad you enjoyed it

I was so enchanted by this FM, I had to sign up to the forums the same day I finished it to come thank the authors Genuinely, truly incredible work! I was so overwhelmed in places that I resorted to just shouting joy at my monitor two, three, maybe four entirely separate times while playing. Exploring, puzzling, finding something new, trying to use it, and finding it does a whole new, separate, wonderful thing! There aren't enough words inside me to describe the feeling. It was breathtaking. I don't have any specific feedback that hasn't come through this thread before Thanks so much for making this, for all the inspiration and ingenuity and effort it took. If I never play another level this good, in any other game, in my life, I'd be fine with that.

sorry i was using your fan mission when i made random funny videos and posted bunch of it on random video of the day thread on off-topic section. My videos are "Unique way to kill yourself in The Dark Mod : getting knocked over by iron gate" and "Hurting a guard by throwing a pickable sword for fun " . However, i really enjoyed every aspect of this mission, is this FM take place in far top of the city? The raising bridge adds a uniqueness to this fan mission and you can prevent the bridge from raising up by placing unconscious body on the corner between iron gate / building door and the bridge passage. I got a huge fps dip when i am walking on the bridge roof and in another open area and i am accustomed to withhold my composure with intel HD graphic performance

Great idea. I just added this to my upcoming mission. chatGPT helped me with the script. Works like a charm. vector playerPosition; vector riversoundPosition; void sound_follow(entity zone) // have river sound speaker ($river_sound) follow the player along the river when in the yard { playerPosition = $player1.getOrigin(); riversoundPosition = $river_sound.getOrigin(); riversoundPosition_y = playerPosition_y; // river runs north-south, only need to change y $river_sound.setOrigin(riversoundPosition); sys.wait(0.2); thread sound_follow($player1); } void kill_sound_follow(entity zone) // stop river sound following player when they leave the yard { sys.killthread("sound_follow"); }

Personally, for this kind of game, double-clicking and double-tapping are the kind of things that instantly get a sour taste in my mouth as soon as I hear it, because I already know from experience that it not reliable enough and it's more prone to human error. You said it yourself: It may also happen accidentally if your fingers twitch, or if your mouse misregisters an extra click, or when you think you didn't hit the target and immediately click again, but it so happens that you did hit the target the first time; or when you're hasting to perform the same task multiples times in quick succession (not very relevant here, but I couldn't count how many times I died in minecraft tapping keys to adjust my position and accidentally double-tapping forward and sprinting off a cliff). Also, given that we're talking about the right mouse button, I'm feeling even less inclined. I can double-right-click, but it doesn't feel very comfortable. It's really not something I'm used to, so it requires a degree of effort (and I suppose it will get my hand tired, as @Wellingtoncrabmentioned). Yup. I like ghosting. To be fair, I play with my own lax rules, but I still feel bothered if I have to tamper with the natural order of things, if I think it's unnecessary or that I shouldn't be forced to. It might seem petty, but it's part of what makes the challenge interesting. You never know, the candle owner might have noticed before bed that the candle was about an inch away from a spec of dust, and in the morning he might realize that that distance has changed. So, from a ghosting perspective, when you tamper with things without needing to, you've introduced a point of failure. If the game requires it, that's another story -- it turns into "I can't work around it, so I have to bend the rules because of it". But as far as I'm concerned it still bothers me and kind of ruins the challenge. For example, TDM has been leaving a really sour taste in my mouth when it comes to dropping keys, because lots of missions don't allow it (because unfortunately they're not droppable by default in DR, and for no good reason, afaik). After Snatcher's post about the delay interfering with manipulating bodies, I was growing tempted to agree with reversing it, but then I realized both ways have issues of the same kind. If you can click to shoulder, then you can't click to drag body -- you always have to hold button, which is not great if you're dragging a body a long distance. If you can click to drag a body, then you can't hold to drag a body. You always have to click to drag and then click to release, which is also not great when you're dragging limbs for a pose or something. (I suppose this might be even more annoying than the other.) Maybe I should posting this in that thread.

I moved Snatcher's "Global Tip System" comment to it's own thread:

There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?

The concern that newcomers and players that play the game occasionally don't know or cannot figure out some features looks like a recurring topic. Since we cannot rely on the training mission alone I propose a "global tip system". First, we need a setting: In-game tips: Yes/No This setting must be easily accessible and therefore it should be included in the main menu or stand out in the settings screen. Now, when the setting is enabled players will get tips in ANY and ALL missions when triggering a condition for the first time. Examples: Player frobs a (shoulderable) ragdoll for the first time: To shoulder a body frob it and press "Use". Drop the body by pressing "Use" again. Player frobs a moveable extinguishable light for the first time: You can extinguish a candle by pressing "Use" while holding it. Find fire sources to relight candles. Player frobs a moveable switchable lantern for the first time: Press "Use" while holding moveable lights to switch them on and off. Player unlocks a door (or object) with a key for the first time: You can lock it again by selecting the appropriate key and pressing "Use". Player shoots a water arrow for the first time: Did you know water can clear blood stains and make moss grow stronger? Player shoots a rope arrow for the first time: Press "Attack" while hanging on the rope to swing. ...

By the way, to address the subject of the thread, I did test the new lean and I quite like it. The amount of view angle is small enough that I didn't even notice it at first, so, as far as I'm concerned, it feels natural. Between the two I much prefer the new one.

I think improvements to the training mission should go to a seperate thread. > Some games have tutorials inside the in-game main menu. Just some text with images would work fine. I agree that the way this currently works in the patched version with longpress and then keeping pressed is not satisfactury. Can it not be set that the grabbing body keeps grabbed when you release the mouse key? So like a toggle. It's still not great, because it means body control is hidden behind a long press.

This just isn’t a true description of the scope as lined out in the original post. Why is it that you feel there is reason enough that you get to decide to just change this? Why is a change which is completely backwards compatible with the existing control scheme “radical”? It is clear in this thread there are players that want this, and anyone who doesn’t doesn’t have to use it. Why at a minimum can’t it go out for testing with more players in a proper dev build like the frob highlight did?

This is another point which been gone over again and again in the thread and doesn’t need more elaboration. Two additional users just pointed out that frobbing is a context sensitive action that is already not “consistent”. There are lots of moveable objects for example that already don’t work like you are describing. Inventory items like keys are also moveables. The primary action is to acquire them. If you wish to interact with them as you would another moveable you must drop them first at which point they appear in front of the player as other physics objects do. No one complains about this not being consistent, as it would be tedious and potentially confusing to need two key presses to acquire most moveable inventory items, many of which are required to progress in the game, just like it is tedious and potentially confusing to do this with bodies. It is TDM which is not consistent with games like Thief TDP/2/3, System Shock 2, Deus Ex, Dishonored, etc. Maybe this is in part why it is confusing, as there is a good chance people coming to TDM will have some familiarity with those games. Thanks for your understanding.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-sensitive_user_interface “At the simplest level each possible action is reduced to a single most likely action” The entire concept of frobbing is already about context, not about consistency across all interactions. It is probably one of the very first examples of a complex context sensitive input in a first person game - something which is ubiquitous now. Again thief, deus ex, dishonored all all have a single frob input, manage to use this inconsistently to both pick up physics objects AND shoulder bodies with this one input, and this confuses no one. (dishonored does have text cues) Further this thread was about features specifically designed to help struggling new players. I see the same feedback over and over again, but so far only one person has mentioned any alternatives which could help them.

I have been following this thread and I tried Wellingtoncrab's build. I thought about all this time ago and I made up my mind back then. I understand the desire for these changes but at the same time I understand why things are the way they are. The current TDM design is consistent and there isn't much room for improvement if we stick to what's available. Shortcuts won't cut it, a modern solution requires something else: less keys and more visuals, sorry to say. With my comments I am trying to warn that we probably are focusing too much on the goal and too little on the side effects 99% of players we will never hear from might face: A candle unintentionally extinguished is frustrating. Dropping bodies while operating doors is frustrating. Trying to hide a leg in the shadows only to end up shouldering the body is frustrating.

The Dark Mod 2.08 https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=3607 Beta Testing Thread: Perhaps the shouldering animation is broken if the executable is used with the latest SVN assets?

OK I think I've got to the bottom of this. I've created this forum thread (with bug report): https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22221-bug-drowning-ai-in-shallow-water/ I can apply a workaround, although it won't be perfect and the bug itself needs fixing in the engine. There are a few other things that need fixing so will put an update together soonish.

If any mappers have encountered weirdness with kill objectives not working with drowning AI, I think I've found out why. I don't think it would be a particularly difficult one to fix either. I've raised this bug report: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6323 Some context here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21837-fan-mission-the-lieutenant-2-high-expectations-by-frost_salamander-20230424/&do=findComment&comment=487316 I think this is a bug, but just raising here in case some people think otherwise.

I dom't use it, i found it here with the filter set to OpenSource. the TOS and PP isn't excluding for an OpenSource app, if they use ads mean that they also need to pay an server for this online service. OpenSource is not synonymous with free either, perhaps after the beta phase it is no longer free, so perhaps you can take advantage of the fact that it is still free to create a series of textures that can be used or search another one in Futuretools. AI generated textures and assets, by definition, don't have any copyright, so you can use them as you want. https://www.futuretools.io/?pricing-model=free|open-source&tags-n5zn=gaming

@cugzkanias an aside I don’t really want to to steal valor from your testers. My comments in the beta thread were limited to encouraging you to recruit testers in main fan missions forum. While I appreciate the call out I don’t think it’s fair to receive any credit for testing the mission. Looking forward to playing it though!

Unfortunately, I don't have a Windows machine to make a build. I'm wondering the same thing. Yes, discussion has been ongoing. There is an internal thread for this.

A Bridge Too Far (version 1.0, 2023-09-22) In this small scale mission, you seek to steal the original copy of a book from the boss of a counterfeit crime outfit, which are located on a bridge. Download link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IeGCBdiGY9W3k_r5Ip8tGtJq9lo5f_PF/view Much thanks to the beta-testers for all of their feedback (link to beta thread - @thebigh - @Cambridge Spy - @Zerg Rush - @wesp5 - @Shadow Screenshots:

@datiswous That was a joke. You asked for thoughts on switching the the thread to be about nirvana. There is a famous line from Smells Like Teen Spirit: “Oh well, whatever, nevermind.” where the name of the album and now this thread comes from.

The thread was opened less than a day after two proposal threads by Daft so I took an educated guess. That said "Daft did nothing wrong". I strongly approve of early community feedback even if the results are messy sometimes.

This is now a thread about the classic Nirvana album "Nevermind".