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So to test it definitively, we could put a map in a .pk4 in addition to a new hud.gui, and it should overwrite our hud.gui. Does this happen?

In the light of that this first part is probably obsolete but I'll post it anyway just in case.. How bad would it be if mappers are told they can't override originals but must create new files. What would it affect? A changed original texture would then also need a copy of the material file def and the normal map, etc. instead of just using the originals. A little extra work but also a little bigger pk4 map file. But how often are mappers doing this? Substantially? Trade off that restriction against the advantage of neat pk4 fan missions all self-enclosed little packages. You could have several in the darkmod folder at once all nicely listed on the Dark Mod menu so long as mappers use very distinctive names so they don't clash with each other. Suppose the pk4 prefix name is limited to just a few characters and these chars prefix all new files? Not a happy solution but Blackheart Manor becomes BHM.pk4 and a file inside might be BHM_name..... Just an idea. [EDIT] what I mean is of course that if anyone else produced a BHM.pk4 then they cannot co-exist in the folder at once.

Found the answer. This was a change made in the Doom 3 1.3 update. I knew I wasn't crazy. So, that explains why the pk4's refuse to overwrite when a map is not present. As I mentioned earlier though, if the map is there...the pk4 should take priority over the unzipped files. I was thinking it would be pretty silly if they didn't retain that functionality with the map present...it would pretty much render pk4's useless.

I don't know what drumple's PK4 did, but feel free to do a test on your own. Just try to override a DEF file or a texture using a PK4.

That doesn't make sense. Did we change something? When rdumple created his custom hud, all we had to do was drop it into the darkmod folder and it would override the unzipped hud.gui in the gui folder. I'm somewhat perplexed by this. The last time I used rdumple's hud pk4 wasn't very long ago. I'm 100% sure that this was the way things worked originally, because people have had issues with pk4's over riding our unzipped files.

Sorry, but I checked the PK4 behaviour with a custom HUD icon that was existent both in the PK4 and the physical mod folders, and the PK4 files were overridden. I also checked that with a normalmap that I deliberately uglyfied in the PK4 files - the changes were only visible when I deleted the unzipped version. If you scroll up the console on Doom 3 startup you'll see the search path: Current search path: C:\Games\Doom3/darkmod C:\Games\Doom3/darkmod\test.pk4 <<< (this is my test archive) C:\Games\Doom3/darkmod\darkmod.pk4 C:\Games\Doom3/base C:\Games\Doom3/base/pak008.pk4 C:\Games\Doom3/base/pak007.pk4 etc. As for the order of the PK4 files, it seems it's in descending alphabetical order.

Say what? That isn't right...I've never had that happen. If you pop a 'genericmap.pk4' into the darkmod directory, any original darkmod files that have been included in the pk4 will alter the unzipped mod directory files. That's how it has always worked for me. Doom 3 will override unzipped files with the pk4 that the map is packaged in, not the other way around. I know this is true, because when rdumple released his classic Thief hud mod, it was packaged in a pk4 and the pk4 didn't even have a map in it...just the hud.gui and his custom files. It overwrote the original hud with a classic Thief hud. The easiest way for FM authors to setup their work is to package all of their custom content...map included...in a pk4. We simply have to tell them to use a creative prefix or suffix.....their username 'googoo_mossybits.tga' for example, or googoo_moss.mtr. They might run into the odd conflict, but it's unlikely to be too serious.

It does, but wouldn't you need some kind of installer for that too?? Since you need an installer either way, I got a different idea. FMs that substitute TDM-defaults could be shiped in zip format instead of pk4. A frontend tool would list both though and if it's a zip-file, simply unzip it in the TDM directory and start the mission. If it's a pk4 it would just start the map directly. Very simple and no complicated implementation...

Files in the directory override PK4s. The confusion may arise because Quake 3 did it the other way around. So in order to use PK4s vs. unzipped files for FM distribution, the mod assets would have to be in PK4 files and the FM assets would have to be unzipped. The fs_game_base thing definitely sounds promising though.

I still don't understand why FM overwriting assets couldn't work in one directory, unless we put all the mod assets in .pk4 form also? If the mod assets are not in .pk4 and just in the directory, and the FM comes in as a .pk4 with files of the same name, won't the files in the .pk4 overwrite the mod assets as desired? Don't know. If it works as advertised, it should be happy with all the mod stuff (.dll with the .pk4, etc) in the fs_game_base directory instead of fs_game.

Interesting. I didn't know about that. We do, but I didn't think it was possible without extracting the contents of the FM PK4. I'm happy to be proved wrong. Could we set fs_game to an "FMs" directory and fs_game_base to the main mod directory? Would that break anything? (Yay for having dev discussions on a public forum. )

I'd say fanmission makers should have ability to override TDM stuff. Maybe in DR there could be a command something like Check Resources Names (or some other...) which would look for same names in your pk4 and original TDM folders and would give you a list of name conflicts. It would be then up to mapper to ignore those which he wants to override or to change names of its own assets to avoid conflicts.

No, we don't really have access to that. There is this existing functionality though: fs_game mod path fs_game_base alternate mod path, searched after the main fs_game path, before the basedir So if we wanted to make sure that mod assets have priority over FM assets where there may be conflicts, we could conceivably put FMs in this other fs_game_base directory. However, don't we want to allow the FM author to change some things? For example, T2x changed the T2 sound-set to female, and changed the main menu GUI. It seems like as long as our assets have been fairly stabilized, the FM author knows what they're doing when putting certain mod filenames in their .pk4 to overwrite them. Maybe you guys are talking about stuff that's harder to determine, like textures that just happen to be named the same? They can browse thru all the mod textures though, so can't they check before making something? Or are we worried that the "official" mod structure will constantly be in flux for a long time after release? You could conceivably split up the .pk4 into stuff that should overwrite and stuff that shouldn't overwrite, and the loader would put the stuff that should overwrite in the fs_game directory, and stuff that shouldn't overwrite in the alternate fs_game_base directory.

Do we have an access to the assets loading code? Could we give priority to the pk4 which contains currently loaded map?

Yes, as long as there are no naming conflicts, you don't need to unpack the PK4s; just copy them into the right folder. I'm not sure what would happen if you had TDM assets in one PK4 and map assets in another PK4 that conflicted with each other. That might be undefined behaviour.

Yes, this is a shame but at least the FMs can be shipped in pk4 form and just copied one by one into the darkmod folder without unpacking. (?) So long as there is only one in at a time? Then it's up to the level designer to avoid conflict with known file names with the original DM resources. If I understand this right then the only conflict would be between same filenames in different pk4 FMs in the darkmod folder together? But then I suppose the DM files might be updated or modified at a later date so maybe unpacking every FM is the only way.

That's not true for Doom 3. The unzipped files (outside the PK4s) override the ones in the PK4 archives.

I couldn't have said that any better. Oh wait, I did!! No, just kidding. You hit the problem on its head!! @Fidcal: Even if the file exists unzipped, the file in the pk4 has priority. It took me quite some frustrating time to notice that back in the old q3 editing days. I had my map pk3ed to sent it to a friend for testing purposes. Then I wanted to change some things but didn't see the proper effect ingame. That was really mean!! So do yourself a favor and delete those pk4s now if you test your map from time to time in that TDM install!!

Sure, PK4 files work great normally. The problem comes when you have the same file in multiple PK4s, and they conflict with each other. There's no way for us to tell Doom 3 which PK4 takes priority, so it might choose the file from the wrong FM. So you need to have some way of swapping PK4s in and out (whether you do it by hand or using a tool such as GarrettLoader), and you can't do it at runtime.

I was a bit surprised at this so thought I'd try it. It seems to work OK but I only tried it on a few map files. This is what I did. I took a couple of short test missions and my own mission and moved just the map files and the associated files in the maps folder from the maps folder to a spare folder where I put them in a new maps folder. I did not include any separate texture files etc if any. I zipped each up separately and renamed to pk4 then moved those archives into the darkmod folder. Loaded up Dark Mod and at the Dark Mod Main Menu I selected 'New Mission'. I then had to type the mission name in on the Dark Mod New Game menu (there's an obscure little input just above the start button for the moment) and click start but I'm sure the names could just as easily be selected from a list once it is set up like the temporary demo menu. I then select 'New Equipment' and go to that menu page. At the New Equipment page as there is no special equipment set up for these maps I just selected 'Start Mission'. All three missions started OK by this means directly from their pk4 archives. While testing they did not exist anywhere but in the pk4 files.

I guess that will just depend on the extent of the mission. If it's just a simple map it shouldn't be a problem to launch it from a menu or even the console. But if someone decides to create his own hud, new menubackgrounds and other thief-common stuff like that, things will get more complicated, because the files in the pk4 of the mission could possibly "replace" existing ones, so that you would have the custom hud in all other FMs. (Of course, it doesn't actually replace the original files, if you delete the new pk4 again, you got your old files "restored" ) That is the only flaw of the otherwise very good pk3/pk4 system. =) I once wanted to include custom weapon skins into my quake 3 trickrun-map, but I decided against it, because the default skins would've been overwritten by mine. ID Software should really have fixed this problem by adding tag-files (or something similar) to those pk3s. Then, that system would be perfect!! So I guess, some Garrettloader kind of thing would come in handy, at least if you don't come along with a different system or proove me wrong in any way. The only thing that tool would need to do though, would be to copy the concerning pk4-file into the TDM-base directory and launch the mod with a maploading parameter.

T%he author will zip up the files and rename MyMission.zip to MyMision.pk4 and you'll need to download and place in correct folder. (I can't tell you what that is yet) For now you can run Doom3 and when it gives you the start game menu you will see a MODS button. If it was a doom mod it would start from there. Darkmod has it's own menus so it looks similar to Thief/Morrowind start up menu, there will be a FM selection.

thank you so much,sounds great i am just a fm player so the fms will have the .pk4 or does the person getting fm have to change it,i am not good at stuff like that

You do need D3. To make levels you would need the beta mappers stuff. To play levels you would need the FM AND the Darkmod stuff (not yet released) They will play thru Doom, so no you won't use Darkloader or Garrett loader. It's possible someone will make a loader when FM's become available, but it is unlikely it will be needed as Doom reads zip files (renamed .pk4) Thief did not read the zips, they needed unpacked.

It's really the kind of thing you pick up in wiki, forums, and tutorials. D3ed uses a similar system so its not completely new.