Keys and Keyrings

[Glyph Seeker]

I've been playing part two of No Honour Amongst Thieves - amongst others - and on larger FMs I'm finding myself having to scroll through a huge inventory. I know I can reassign the keys for category scrolling - but even then, not being able to drop useless items is a real pain and clutters things up.

 

Something which was a big relief in Deus ex was that all the "keys" you pick up are added to a nano "key" which makes trying a door a lot easier if you're not sure you have the right key or not. Arx Fatalis likewise had a key ring you could just add all the keys you find to.

 

Would it be at all possible / desirable to have something similar in the Dark Mod to tidy up keys?

[Mortem Desino]

I suppose it's possible, but what would be a nice, clean way of figuring out exactly what keys you have on your keyring?

 

Deus Ex had the inventory screen, but TDM's minimal HUD doesn't have the real estate to list a dozen keys.

[Springheel]

For some reason keys were set to by nondroppable by default, which leads to the clutter problem.

[Tels]

For some reason keys were set to by nondroppable by default, which leads to the clutter problem.

 

Probably for the reason that otherwise the player can drop a key he needs later, but can no longer access (drop key in dungeon, leave dungeon with door closing behind, never can continue with mission), and that would suck big time from the player's POV.

[Glyph Seeker]

Argh double post

 

(Deleted)

Edited June 27, 2011 by Glyph Seeker

[Glyph Seeker]

I suppose it's possible, but what would be a nice, clean way of figuring out exactly what keys you have on your keyring?

 

Deus Ex had the inventory screen, but TDM's minimal HUD doesn't have the real estate to list a dozen keys.

 

This is the biggest problem I can think of with the keyring idea. Disrupting the GUI would, I imagine, take a lot of effort and might break the "feel" of a game on an aesthetic level.

 

The "loot" section tells you dynamically how much you've got of different kinds of treasure. I was wondering if something like that could be used so as you pick up keys text above the icon could list the names of the keys?

 

PS: I know I am a new person and haven't contributed anything (yet) so please don't take a topic like this as insane demands - I'm just trying to guage how people feel on issues I've encountered. :-3

[Springheel]

Probably for the reason that otherwise the player can drop a key he needs later, but can no longer access (drop key in dungeon, leave dungeon with door closing behind, never can continue with mission

 

Probably. Which means everyone has to suffer in order to protect a few people from doing something stupid.

[Tels]

Probably. Which means everyone has to suffer in order to protect a few people from doing something stupid.

 

You can decide whether you want to deal with the "I can't acces my keys fast enough" complainers (by adding a GUI for it or making them droppable), or if you want to deal with the "I dropped my key and can't finish the mission" complainers (where there is no solution).

 

But you can't make everyone happy.

 

In any event, should I have a go at making keys selectable with a overlay-GUI?

[Tels]

Btw, making keys droppable is a solution, but not really to the problem at hand. If you step back and re-read the original complains, it is more along the lines "I have too many keys so it takes to long to select one".

 

Making them droppable alleviates this problem, if the player actually could drop keys. Apart from the mission-breaking I wrote above, it is also impossible for a player to *know* when to drop a key, except under rare circumstances. In almost all cases the player would hord the keys on the off-chance that the kitchen key also opens the backdoor, that the chest key opens another chest etc.

 

If he/she really dropped the keys, even in a safe location, he would alwas wonder when faced with somehing that requires a key "should I run back and fetch my keys in case one is the one?"

 

So in essence players would only rarely drop keys, and so the problem of having a dozend keys would not be alleviated - because 10 out of 12 keys is still too many.

 

So my opinion is still that we need a GUI solution, not a "make keys droppable" solution.

[Springheel]

But you can't make everyone happy.

 

True, though I would suspect that the people who don't like scrolling through keys vastly outnumber the people who would drop a key and then complain about it.

 

 

If you step back and re-read the original complains, it is more along the lines "I have too many keys so it takes to long to select one".

 

Yes...because they can't drop any. It's right in the second sentence:

 

I know I can reassign the keys for category scrolling - but even then, not being able to drop useless items is a real pain and clutters things up.

It's true that some people wouldn't want to drop generic keys they were unsure of, but if a key is called, "Joe's bedroom key" and you've already unlocked Joe's bedroom and everything in it, then you're probably safe to drop it somewhere. The missions with lots of keys also tend to have fairly descriptive names for them.

[Tels]

True, though I would suspect that the people who don't like scrolling through keys vastly outnumber the people who would drop a key and then complain about it.

 

What I wanted to get across is that just because you make keys droppable, doesn't mean you reduce the number of complains, because then people complain that they can't drop keys because they don't know _when_ they can safely drop them...

 

Yes...because they can't drop any. It's right in the second sentence:

 

As I wrote, the original complainer probably did not think this through, either.

 

It's true that some people wouldn't want to drop generic keys they were unsure of, but if a key is called, "Joe's bedroom key" and you've already unlocked Joe's bedroom and everything in it, then you're probably safe to drop it somewhere.

 

Unless you forgot something to unlock. Or find out later that it unlocked something else.. etc. The player simply can't know, he has to assume, and that will lead to pain.

 

The missions with lots of keys also tend to have fairly descriptive names for them.

 

While that is true, that doesn't mean that the player knows when to drop a key safely. He can only guess and hope.

[jaxa]

Blast from the past:

 

http://modetwo.net/d...entory-cycling/

 

And to push my pet solution: implement the Mission X keyring as a black hole for keys and leave it to the mapper to optionally create some sort of notes, scripting, gui thing that indicates what keys are held or what doors can be unlocked.

Edited June 27, 2011 by jaxa

[Mortem Desino]

Quite honestly, I never ever think about dropping a key. My thiefy paranoia starts tingling "Oh, wait, MAYBE that key should be kept for some other door."

 

Or I just keep a key, in the hopes that I can lock an AI in his own room.

[Tels]

Blast from the past:

 

http://modetwo.net/d...entory-cycling/

 

Inventory-cycling-inside-a-group is already implemented, you can even assign a shortcut like "k" to it and let it cycle through all the keys. Speeds things up a lot.

 

And to push my pet solution: implement the Mission X keyring as a black hole for keys and leave it to the mapper to optionally create some sort of notes, scripting, gui thing that indicates what keys are held or what doors can be unlocked.

 

I'd not like this, as I like to personally try which keys fits. It enhances the tension

[jaxa]

Inventory-cycling-inside-a-group is already implemented, you can even assign a shortcut like "k" to it and let it cycle through all the keys. Speeds things up a lot.

 

I'd not like this, as I like to personally try which keys fits. It enhances the tension

 

I was just noting that the entire idea of the keyring was raised and discussed in that thread, not just the title topic.

 

I'd agree, but I would think that this feature would be largely reserved for those maps with so many keys that they can be considered a keyhunt, or are otherwise massive. Also, the problem is the inventory clutter, not the tension. It could be possible to implement a key cycling delay based on an array that holds each key as they are added to the player's keyring. You select the keyring, use it on the door, you get a ~0.4 sec delay with a jingly/unlocking attempt sound until it opens. Once you use the key it gets whitelisted and works immediately.

[Tels]

I was just noting that the entire idea of the keyring was raised and discussed in that thread, not just the title topic.

 

Ah yes, ok. I am sleep deprived...

 

I'd agree, but I would think that this feature would be largely reserved for those maps with so many keys that they can be considered a keyhunt, or are otherwise massive. Also, the problem is the inventory clutter, not the tension.

 

I am not entirely convinced the inventory is cluttered. For most items there is a hot key (spyglass, lantern, health potion etc. and you can make your own hotkeys, too!) and for most groups (readables, maps, keys, lockpicks) there is a hotkey, too. Plus you can cycle through the inventory group-by-group (e.g. entirely skip the keys).

 

So in my experiences it is very rare that you actually scroll through the inventory item-by-item and then have to scroll past the X keys to get somewhere else.

 

The only thing I could see is that you have to scroll through X keys to go to the last key you need or so. And for that a visual selector (press some key, all keys are shown, click the one you want to use) would be better, because it could be used for the rest of the inventory, too. All other solutions are specific to keys and fail if you have f.i. 20 readables, or 10 different tools and special items etc.

 

It could be possible to implement a key cycling delay based on an array that holds each key as they are added to the player's keyring. You select the keyring, use it on the door, you get a ~0.4 sec delay with a jingly/unlocking attempt sound until it opens. Once you use the key it gets whitelisted and works immediately.

 

There are many possibilities, but nobody has time apparantly or is sick enough of the situation to change it

[jaxa]

There are many possibilities, but nobody has time apparantly or is sick enough of the situation to change it

 

Exactly.

[fllood]

I'm absolutly happy as it is now. Having to select the right key is part of the taffer experience for me. And having an hotkey to the keys in TDM is perfect for having a quick access to circle through keys. While I would be pro to be able to drop keys I understand the reason why this had been decided to be not allowed.

[Mortem Desino]

Yeah. I've got cycle-through-keys bound to "=". So if I come across a locked door, I just start madly mashing =↲=↲=↲=↲=↲=↲=↲ *unlock noise* Hooray!

[Glyph Seeker]

I was just noting that the entire idea of the keyring was raised and discussed in that thread, not just the title topic.

 

I'd agree, but I would think that this feature would be largely reserved for those maps with so many keys that they can be considered a keyhunt, or are otherwise massive. Also, the problem is the inventory clutter, not the tension. It could be possible to implement a key cycling delay based on an array that holds each key as they are added to the player's keyring. You select the keyring, use it on the door, you get a ~0.4 sec delay with a jingly/unlocking attempt sound until it opens. Once you use the key it gets whitelisted and works immediately.

 

That sounds like a perfect solution, in my mind! x-D

 

But I understand that for most people and most missions - this is not a pressing problem.

 

I'm just dipping my toe and trying to guage dev. opinion / thought on certain things, not demanding a GUI rewrite! =-X

[Baddcog]

I like a neat and simple inventory, but don't like dropping keys.

 

A lot of keys work for multiple doors. Say you get the kitchen key, open kitchen, go in/drop then get to the back door...locked... Of course that's simplified expl.

 

Mission X keyring is the best solution IMO.

I don't really care if I scroll through 10 keys and find 'Joe's Bedroom Key' or just try the key ring and it works (I have key) or doesn't (I don't).

It's kind of like auto lock picking. You know you just have to hold it long enough and it'll work.

 

What would be nice is a HUD solution as posted. Maybe a small list of keys. It might interfere a bit with the simplified HUD, but ONLY when the keyring is selected. (like loot). Of course in some missions it could get out of hand too.

 

I'd be satisfied with the name of the key appearing for 5 seconds above the ring, or being there until a new key is grabbed (much like how loot works).

Would be less clutter and shouldn't be hard for player to be familiar with keys they grabbed, especially if objectives say 'Find Joe's Key', bling...'Joe's Key'... OK, move on...

---------

 

Would be nice to have a mapper option though

goes_on_ring 1

 

Then all keys get added, unless flagged 0. ie special mission keys the player HAS to have and the author wants to make it clear.

door keys...keyring

special loot scepter key ... not on ring

-----------

 

Maybe this could also be configured in menu.

 

If player wants keyring all keys flagged as such by mapper would go on one.

If player doesn't want a ring then the map ignores the flag.

 

Not sure if it's even possible.

 

But mapper should have choice to override keyring for special keys no matter what imo.

 

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I know we have the inventory hot keys, but i never use them. I like to play in the dark and finding those keys half way across the board usually just leads to fumble.

 

I know I could move them closer, but same thing, too many keys, fumble, reload..

 

A ring is the best solution imo.

[New Horizon]

What I've always hoped for is the following...

 

 

1. We keep the existing system exactly how it is....but...

2. We also add a key ring option in the menu.

3. The current system and the key ring would be tightly integrated.

 

There are some concerns with allowing a key ring, but I think this system would address them.

 

Functionally, it's pretty simple. Mappers would setup keys as they normally do..no changes, no extra flags..no headaches. If the key ring is activated, keys are automatically added to the key ring. The player chooses to enable or disable the key ring in the menu. If they enable it, the following happens.

 

1. A keyring is placed in inventory.

2. As players collect keys, they are added to the key ring.

3. The player will cycle to the keyring within the standard inventory and 'use' it to unlock doors, rather than cycling through a dozen keys and using them individually.

4. If the player is required to leave a specific key behind, or for some gameplay reason needs to browse through the keys, they would hit the 'hotkey' button and it would bring up all the individual keys. The 'hotkey' would need to become a toggle while the keyring is activated for this to work though. Kind of like a key ring mode...so that you don't cycle back into the inventory while cycling. When the toggle is on, you only cycle through the keys. The player can then sort through their keys and choose to drop one if needed.

 

If possible, the player should be able choose to disable the keyring from the menu at any time.

[i30817]

Sure this is how i would like it too (i don't like inventory clutter and never drop keys in thief anyway (no perfect ghost for me, but then again, them could use the key system if keys become dropable)), but there is a concern:

you have to be sure there aren't people abusing the lock system with things like a "wand" to open a "slab of stone". Basically that there are no hacks that highjack the current system that would look silly with a keyring. I don't know if there is something like this now, but it's always a concern in software when you extend a base mechanism. (though you have a good way to avoid this by patching missions due to your centralized repositories)

Edited June 28, 2011 by i30817

[Sotha]

New Horizon's suggestion is the most reasonable one, in my opinion. Keyring should be a player side toggle.

 

Do we even need a special hotkey for dropping keys? When items are cycled through normally, keys are never shown, only the keyrings gets shown. But pressing the "cycle keys group" button would show individual keys just normally for individual use or dropping.

 

Basically what a keyring does, is use all the keys the player has simultaneusly on the seleced object.

[Midnight]

I'm partial to the keyring idea as well, but I don't see the need to complicate things further by being able to drop keys from the keyring. I've never dropped a key in thief or TDM, I'm from the pack rat school of RPGs .

 

The only benefit to being able to see individual keys in the keyring, and it's an important one I think, is that it reminds you what keys you've picked up so far.

 

Also, another Blast from the Past.