Keys and Keyrings

[Sotha]

I'm partial to the keyring idea as well, but I don't see the need to complicate things further by being able to drop keys from the keyring. I've never dropped a key in thief or TDM, I'm from the pack rat school of RPGs .

 

But do remember that if the keyring is a option toggle and would not allow key dropping, some FM's might be broken if it is played with keyring on.

 

What if the mission requires the player to "Get the key, unlock the door, loot the place, and drop the key in Benny's footlocker to frame him."

 

You gotta have the same functionality possibilities with the keyring and without it.

[fllood]

The 'hotkey' would need to become a toggle while the keyring is activated for this to work though. Kind of like a key ring mode...so that you don't cycle back into the inventory while cycling.

That's like it is today. And the reason why it is so convenient

 

One thing if considering implementing an optional keyring solution: It takes the player less time using a keyring ( = immediately auto-open) than finding the key from the key pool. So when time pressure is a matter in gameplay - say for example some guard is on his way on his patrol to the door the player want to enter quickly - using the keyring is a gamplay advantage (some would say cheat) over the current situation with keys.

[Briareos H]

If a keyring system is really helpful to some (personally I'm fine with the current system), how about a game option that simply allows to open a lock on frob if the corresponding key is in the inventory? No additional keyring object, very simple feedback to the player ("unlock" sound, locked doors don't open on the first frob).

Relocking the door would still require cycling through the keys, but I think that someone immersed enough to relock doors would prefer the non-keyring solution anyway.

[Sotha]

If a keyring system is really helpful to some (personally I'm fine with the current system), how about a game option that simply allows to open a lock on frob if the corresponding key is in the inventory? No additional keyring object, very simple feedback to the player ("unlock" sound, locked doors don't open on the first frob).

Relocking the door would still require cycling through the keys, but I think that someone immersed enough to relock doors would prefer the non-keyring solution anyway.

 

I would find such an insta-frob-locked-doors-open a grievious atrocity and would never use it.

 

A keyring might be handy in some keyhunt missions, though. Also I don't have problems with the current system, but I generally simply loathe missions that have million keys and unpickable doors, so...

[New Horizon]

...how about a game option that simply allows to open a lock on frob if the corresponding key is in the inventory?

 

That's what TDS did....so, no thanks. lol

 

The idea behind having the player 'use' the keyring is that while it eliminates the hunt, it still retains the interactive quality of having to select the item from the inventory and use it on the lock.

 

So when time pressure is a matter in gameplay - say for example some guard is on his way on his patrol to the door the player want to enter quickly - using the keyring is a gamplay advantage (some would say cheat) over the current situation with keys.

 

I wouldn't exactly call it a cheat, you still have to select the key ring from within the inventory, and hit the 'use' key. Sure, you don't have to cycle through all the keys, but you still have the inventory to deal with.

 

I think it's the type of feature that gamers who don't have a lot of time, either due to work or family commitments might appreciate.

 

 

Do we even need a special hotkey for dropping keys? When items are cycled through normally, keys are never shown, only the keyrings gets shown. But pressing the "cycle keys group" button would show individual keys just normally for individual use or dropping.

 

The cycle keys group is what I was referring to when I said 'hotkey', I just didn't know exactly how it already worked. Yes, if the cycle keys group already works that way, it could allow the player to do exactly that in special cases, eliminating the issue of breaking previous missions.

 

This system is something I would have liked to put in TDS when I added the key ring system to the enhanced TDS editor I was working on, but there was no way to support a system like that in the TDS editor with no access to the code.

[Briareos H]

The idea behind having the player 'use' the keyring is that while it eliminates the hunt, it still retains the interactive quality of having to select the item from the inventory and use it on the lock.

 

 

That sounds half-assed to me. lol

 

Anyway as long as I can turn off the keyring so it doesn't appear in my inventory I won't care. I just wonder exactly what the people who want that feature are looking for. At least I was consistent with the options of TDM for lockpicking: don't like it? Turn it off completely.

 

Ideally I wouldn't say no to a key selection overlay :>

[fllood]

you still have to select the key ring from within the inventory, and hit the 'use' key. Sure, you don't have to cycle through all the keys, but you still have the inventory to deal with.

hm so you rather like to circle through all the inventory items to find a keyring instead of right jumping to the key-only-circle (with the hotkey) and finding the prober ring??

 

... well, for the key-only-circle you have to press one button, true. And reading the key names to find the right one. But the normal inventory usually have much more items to cricle through than the numbers of keys so far in any FM.

Finding a keyring within all that inventory clutter would bug me much more as pressing one hotkey to get into the key-circle mode and picking the right key.

 

A keyring would only be a real time saver for the mentioned audiance (if thats what you aim for) if you attach a keyring to a hotkey for drawing it without having to dig through the inventory. But then you also would have to press a "button in the dark" like with the current key-circle hotkey. And just one-button click away from the TDS' phrob-opening that Briareos H suggested ....

Edited June 28, 2011 by fllood

[New Horizon]

Ok guys, lets not lose focus here. There is a difference between sorting through a dozen keys and trying them on a door until it unlocks and selecting a single keyring and trying it on the lock.

 

When I spoke to a couple of the TDS devs, they explained that their idea of the 'frob - auto unlock' was to streamline the game for casual players...unfortunately, that sacrificed the gameplay for those who would enjoy even the slightest interaction with door and inventory business. It went too far. I asked why they didn't implement a key ring instead, but I guess even that wasn't even an option given the push some of the higher ups had on the game. The ability to do it existed though, as I was able to use the TDS scripting to implement a fully working key ring system in the editor.

 

As for lockpicking, all we did there was provide an option for people who couldn't get the hang of the TDM version, or preferred the T1 / T2 auto pick version. You still have to wait for it though, it's not an 'instant gratification' feature like automating the unlocking of doors was in TDS.

 

Certainly can't please everyone, but I really enjoyed the Keyring in the T2 missions that used it.

[Sotha]

Cool!

Now we have identified the problem and a nice solution for it has come up. People have been really busy commenting the thing.

 

(An option toggle keyring which uses automatically all keys the player possesses on the targeted door. Keyring keys can also be selected individually for dropping option.)

 

So, who wants to see the trouble of implementing a working proof-of-concept so the tdm team doesn't have to stray from their current important tasks?

 

*knock knock*

Hello? Anyone here?

 

*wind howls in an empty room*

...

 

*in total silence hears his own heartbeat and breathing*

 

*slips away*

 

;-D

[New Horizon]

I'll take a look into it. I think Sparhawk had done some early work on a keyring a long time ago, might be able to get some info from that if the files still exist some where.

[Baddcog]

That's like it is today. And the reason why it is so convenient

 

One thing if considering implementing an optional keyring solution: It takes the player less time using a keyring ( = immediately auto-open) than finding the key from the key pool. So when time pressure is a matter in gameplay - say for example some guard is on his way on his patrol to the door the player want to enter quickly - using the keyring is a gamplay advantage (some would say cheat) over the current situation with keys.

 

That's when the author uses lockpicks.

 

The author can time out (successful) lockpicks pretty accurately. The author can never time out what random assortment of keys and how the player will fumble inventory.

[Baddcog]

I just wonder exactly what the people who want that feature are looking for.

 

We want the no cycling through 20 keys to find the right one so inventory doesn't get out of control.

 

Go to find a potion or note, cycle through 20 keys to find it, etc...

 

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A key is just an instant open anyway. IF you have the key. The challenge isn't supposed to be finding which key in inventory to open the door. Why should it be difficult if you have it?

 

The challenge is to find the key in the map that is required to open that door. Whether it's hidden, hanging in plain site or on an AI's belt.

[Briareos H]

Then this supports my idea that there is no need for a specific inventory object, just an "auto-unlock if you possess the key".

 

Unless not having to select an object during the unlocking process is immersion breaking? (This is a genuine question)

Edited June 28, 2011 by Briareos H

[Baddcog]

Well, just frobbing a locked door, and actually at least going for a key is different.

 

But if I was breaking into a place, found a locked door where I thought the kitchen to be (intuition, notes, map) and found a key that clued me into the fact that it was the kitchen key (see notes - 'the key is in the maids quarters') and I found that key I would probably put it in a pocket and know where it was.

 

So when I got to the door I wouldn't pull every key I found out of every pocket to try and open that door... I'd just pull out the key I knew was it.

 

That's what the key ring symbolizes to me personally. Not so much auto unlock as personal organization that I would practice to make my looting job/easier/cleaner/quicker.

 

But having to cycle through 10 keys is like I'm a bumbling idiot who can't remember where I put that specific key that I knew was for a certain door. 'I know it's here somewhere, is this it, nope, how bout this..nope, derp where'd I put it?'

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Not having to at least pull out a key(keyring) is immmersion breaking. In that case lock picks shouldn't even have an auto lock option, any door that is locked with that option should just open without even pulling out the pick.

[fllood]

That's when the author uses lockpicks.

 

The author can time out (successful) lockpicks pretty accurately. The author can never time out what random assortment of keys and how the player will fumble inventory.

NH was able to find better words that one goal for a keyring for some of you is about the time needed to open a door with "trying multiple keys until it unlocks" versus the time needed "selecting a single keyring and just using it on the lock". (we don't speak about lockpicking)

 

And if it needs less time to access a room behind a door with a keyring compared to trying many keys it is a difference from gameplay perspective in tense situations where time matters.

 

So when I got to the door I wouldn't pull every key I found out of every pocket to try and open that door...

If mappers give their keys distinctive intuitiv names you won't need to do so. You find a locked door where I thought the kitchen to be? just pick the key with the name "Kitchen Door Key". Some could argue, how should be player know about?! true... and using a script to name the key in the inventory after finding out to which door a key belong to probably not worth the efforts for keeping realism. hm don't know, just thinking loud...

 

Go to find a potion or note, cycle through 20 keys to find it, etc...

There are hotkeys for cycle that categories as well for people not afraid of using them

 

I just mention this ... not trying to shift your preferences or to prevent any enthusiasm if you guys feel to add an optional keyring would add to TDM.

Edited June 28, 2011 by fllood

[Springheel]

But having to cycle through 10 keys is like I'm a bumbling idiot

 

Just out of curiosity, of the 45 missions released so far, how many have more than 10 keys in them? Is it just Heart? How many missions have more than five keys?

 

My hunch is that more than half of the released missions have less than 5 keys, and that only one or two have more than ten, but I could be wrong.

[Glyph Seeker]

@Badcog

 

You've pretty much summed up all of my thinking in your posts, thank you! x-D

 

Having a key ring would stop you from having to wheel past "footlocker key" "John's footlocker key" "Master footlocker key" things you have unlocked, you KNOW have one purpose and you already picked the lock in the first place, you don't need to relock them BUT you can't drop them. As Springheel explained, letting people drop keys willy nilly isn't an option, so absorbing them into a key ring you have to select to open a door makes a lot more sense than having a key with an incredibly narrow and obsolete purpose take up the same "room" or "space" as the single unique key you need to finish a mission for an unpickable lock. =-P

[Baddcog]

@fllood, my point about 'tense situations' is that an author can use lockpicks for spots that should be as such.

And since you can time how long a successful lockpick is on a certain lock and that time never changes, authors can make the situation very tense by giving the player exaclty enough time for one lockpick chance before they have to run to shadows and wait for next chance.

 

Since a key is a very quick frob/open it doesn't allow for that tense build up. The only tension comes from fumbling through inventory keys trying to find the correct one. The author can't plan that, they can't predict it, etc...

 

Like I said about hotkeys, I gotta fumble in the dark to find the right ones, or move them close to other keys and maybe accidentally hit them when I don't want.

That's why I don't use them, I just like to mouse scroll. But sometimes you have 5 items, couple notes/books/couple keys... after awhile inventory gets completely bloated and scrolling to the correct key takes too long.

 

Even if the keys are named (they usually are) as my example above about knowing where I'd have the key... I wouldn't pull the bedroom key out of one pocket, then pull the lobby key from another, THEN pull the kitchen key when all I wanted was the kitchen key to begin with.

But that is in effect what scrolling through inv keys is.

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@Spring,

 

You're right. Currently Heart is THE key hunt mission. But as FM's progress in size who knows what we'll see. And sure many authors are aware that players don't like key hunts, etc...

 

But having a keyring in place, or at least option clears up that issue for the future. It also makes it so that authors can use more keys and get rid of the main complaint - inventory bloat.

The other complaint is finding all the keys, but that is up to author to use wisely, make easy to find, etc...

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@Glyph,

 

it IS possible to have droppable keys. It's just that the var is set to non-drop standard. So most mappers will happen to leave that alone. Then players get used to it, then it's odd when one can be dropped.

===============

 

Anyway, I can live with or without one. But my preference is to have key ring available and having it as an option, with ON keyring being default for keys unless author or player chooses otherwise is the best option (if possible) imo.

[Fidcal]

If the inventory is going to be looked at then I have to give another plug for my shift category scroll idea (option of course.)

• Shift + inventory controls: scrolls categories.
  
• Inventory controls: scrolls within category only (like a keyring.)
  
• It means players who scroll the inventory with the mouse can have a left hand on a shift key and easily scroll categories or items with the mouse. This also works with keyboard of course but more critical for mousers.
  
• Added bonus it frees up a control impulse for some other purpose.
  
• As you shift scroll through categories you see the first item in the category so if the 'use keyring' option is set then this should always be the keyring in the keys category. You can then use the keyring direct but still scroll around the keys if you want. To get quickly back to keyring you shift scroll or set a shortcut.
  
• Players who prefer a scrollable key ring have this automatically because all categories would work this way.
  

[stumpy]

doesn't doom 3 use a form of keyring when the keycards get added to the pda, something along the lines of the keycards were numberd 0 to 16 and so to make a keyring work then you would use a set of numbers that when added together would produce unique combinations so then a door would know if you have the correct key on the keyring to open the door else you could add two keys together on a keyring and unlock a door without the right key. something like 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256.