FM Translation Authorizations

[Hyeron]

I've been around. I've translated a nice set of FM's for Thief, Thief 2, and TDM by now, either as Hyeron or as Nightwolf. I take pleasure in it. I may not always be active, far from it, but it's still nice to work on some taffing when I have the opportunity. Still, I've lost so much time in the past waiting for authorizations to translate FMs (which wouldn't even be answered at times, or the author would grant rights so restricted it wouldn't even have been worth the effort - OTOH many, many mappers were nice, friendly, helpful and quick to react, mind you) I'd like to try it another way for TDM.

 

Given some mappers are very protective about their work, I can't and won't go on a translating spree without knowing if I won't get some kind of backlash. So I'll ask everyone at once:

 

Who, among you guys, agrees to grant translation rights on his FMs and who doesn't want to hear about it?

 

Please note that I'm not only talking about French. There isn't an army of translators for TDM, far from it, but anyone willing to help might like to know what's available and jump in without further messing around, sending request, waiting for answers, archiving them just in case, and so forth. Maybe it will help some people get working on it, who knows?

 

Cheers, and thanks in advance for your answers.

 

(hesitated between this section and I wanna help, feel free to move it if needed ^^)

Edited October 6, 2011 by Hyeron

[ECHELON]

Hi hyeron.

I'm a translator too(italian).

 

I want to advice you that with the new Dark mod translation system, there will be no need to seek permission to mappers, as the translation file will be separated from the mission and will not change it.

 

For more information:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/12863-translating-the-tdm-gui/

 

[Hyeron]

As much as I'd like to agree with you, I'm VERY doubtful.

 

Main reason:

 

* Does the dictionary method include textures and maps? And even then, what if an author does NOT want his FM to be translated?

 

Sure, we'll get free access to xdata. But it's largely insufficient for some missions. Have a look at Thief's Den for example. It has a splash screen - that's one texture. It has that nice "PERIL'S COURT" sign. That's two. It has a map. That's three. And it's an effing DEMO MISSION. And I've met a few mappers who were - to put it bluntly - anal about it. While I don't care THAT much about the splash, not being allowed to edit the textures of the map makes translating it a huge waste of time and resources. Because I translate street names, district names, and ALL readables - which include textures. It may be of lesser importance than in Thief, but it's still a hurdle. I don't like messing around with people's IP. Furthermore, as I said, some people do NOT want to hear about having their mission translated. I've met a few.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Hyeron

[ECHELON]

As much as I'd like to agree with you, I'm VERY doubtful.

 

Main reason:

 

* Does the dictionary method include textures and maps? And even then, what if an author does NOT want his FM to be translated?

 

Sure, we'll get free access to xdata. But it's largely insufficient for some missions. Have a look at Thief's Den for example. It has a splash screen - that's one texture. It has that nice "PERIL'S COURT" sign. That's two. It has a map. That's three. And it's an effing DEMO MISSION. And I've met a few mappers who were - to put it bluntly - anal about it. While I don't care THAT much about the splash, not being allowed to edit the textures of the map makes translating it a huge waste of time and resources. Because I translate street names, district names, and ALL readables - which include textures. It may be of lesser importance than in Thief, but it's still a hurdle. I don't like messing around with people's IP. Furthermore, as I said, some people do NOT want to hear about having their mission translated. I've met a few.

 

 

For ther maps/image problem, tels is working for it.

 

However, if a mapper does not want his map is translated (eeeeeeeeeeeextremely rare), simply do not translate it.

 

p.s. (i have translate thief's den too. even the image. )

[ithel]

I think resistance to translation is short-sighted, as this is a way to reach more people with a mission. Back when I released my mission for Thief Gold, I also released a German language edition (complete with its own German-language voice actors who had recorded the custom dialogue for me). So when it comes to that point for me, I'm definitely interested in your help.

 

I'm not sure, but I think TDM is flexible enough to do closed-captions if it is not feasable to re-record the voices in other languages.

[Bikerdude]

I don't have an issue with my missions being translated.

[Hyeron]

@ithel & bikerdude - thanks a ton, it means a lot to me.

 

@ithel - voicing has always been an issue, and will probably always be. Furthermore, the French Thief Community is very, very small, with just a handful of regulars and a bunch of bystanders. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of players but none of them caring enough to take part into it. The problem then gets aggravated by the fact only some of us have microphones. Then you have the delays. Then you have the number of takes to get it right. Then you have the audio editing. Then you better pray it all comes along fine in game. Quite frankly, I sincerely hope we'll be able to add closed captions. While it put me off to see Deadly Shadows was close captioned (I daresay the French voice for Garrett was even superior to the English one), in this context, it would probably be the best solution, as dubbing TDM would require us to also dub ALL of the assets of TDM. Almost impossible on the French side of things. :/

 

@ECHELON - Sure, they may be a minority and the TDM community has always felt warmer than TTLG (to me, but it may just be that it's smaller). But even so, they have every right to refuse, and going against their will just because you don't know isn't an option. We're talking digital files, that can be duplicated as much as one wants. Once you release a file, it's out of control. Literally. And as painful as it is to hear "I don't care if it's translated, just NOT into French, so FU" (even though it only happened once), it's STILL preferable to going against the author's will. I will NOT translate without the author's permission. It's as much a matter of courtesy (too rare a thing these days) as it is a matter of IP. Some authors may also refuse for stranger reasons. It happened that an author would only grant me the rights on his text files because he took so much time creating his textures and didn't want them to get nuked (granted, I suck a bit when it comes to advanced image editing, but experience compensates in part for that). Which was a pity as the FM took place in a huge portion of the City, complete with street signs, very detailed posters and stuff. In the end I didn't translate it for that very reason. When it feels right I keep the English names, but I still translate "street", "avenue", "court" etc. When it feels right I translate the whole names. It would have created discrepancies and/or ugliness.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Hyeron

[Jesps]

Feel free to translate my maps if you like.

[Tels]

As much as I'd like to agree with you, I'm VERY doubtful.

 

Main reason:

 

* Does the dictionary method include textures and maps?

 

No, this would always require the translator to "draw" new images, and this create derivative works.

 

Or, the technical solution is to create the text as overlay - we can do this for streetsigns, I am pretty sure we can do this for maps (and if not, once D3 is open source, we can implement better text rendering that does allow this). Likewise for the splash screen.

 

However, that is the big however, the assets need either be done this way by the mapper, or he needs to allow the modification of these assets.

 

So the technical solution does not solve the problem that some authors will not allow it (or simply not answer your request because they lost interest, or worse, are dead already...)

 

And even then, what if an author does NOT want his FM to be translated?

 

Simply, I will not host it on bloodgate.com (I will of course respect their wish to not reach more people with their mission. Everyone has the right to screw themselves as much as they want

 

Of course, there will be other people hosting it, so no FM author will be moved by my refusal to host an FM. And what the official TDM repository is hosting is beyond my control. My opinion is probablynot even taken into consideration.

 

 

Anyway, since a couple of authors have already stated that they do not have any interest in translation at all, I guess you will always have some missions that will not get officially translated. And then someone will translate it anyway, host it somewhere else (in russia?), and the world will be a bit worse of then before (because now you have officially and unofficially hosted missions).

 

I've said from the beginning that it would be a very wise idea to force every author to release their missions under a clear license that allows derivative works - but its too late now

[Hyeron]

I've said from the beginning that it would be a very wise idea to force every author to release their missions under a clear license that allows derivative works - but its too late now

 

That has been on my mind for SO long. Things like that take years to change, I'm afraid. It's as easy as adding six frigging letters to a readme, Creative Commons covers all the cases I can imagine in this context (BY enforced, then derivative or not, NC for almost everyone), yet people don't use it. A shame, truly. (however, it might be abused by pseudo-mappers remixing other people's maps by adding one pile of coins ololol. OTOH those would get a quick, nice headshot by any decent community member... - EDIT 2 - Then again nothing prevent from "remixing" CC. It may have no legal value, but it would be sufficient)

 

Back to the rest of your post.

Images have always been a hassle, will always be. But I don't know if an overlay would be wise. It would be even more depressing to edit than the current map images. You'd have to fire up TDM, check if it looks right, correct errors, rinse & repeat. As it is, it requires a little bit of Gimp magic to get it working. If it looks right in Gimp, you're done (replace with favourite image editor).

I'd rather see the mappers have it their way, then take it upon myself to get something decent looking with my skills. And god knows I've spent DAYS on some Thief maps (especially with the automatic map, guess you get my drift. Ever tried translating a puzzle you cannot complete first?).

 

As to the unofficial hosts... Well, it's their responsibility. Getting a clear "NO." from the start might be better than (hypothetical case) having a "Nevermore" after all is done because well, you hosted it for one hour and, like all digital files, it spread like wildfire. You did what you had to do, but the files are everywhere, the author is pissed off AND he knows it'll happen again next time. Which gets you back to the start : those NOes have to be handled one way or another.

 

As I told you, there's no clear solution to this. Apart from using a license. Which won't be happening anytime soon unless everyone (EDIT - already "in the game", I mean) starts doing it.

 

Six.

Goddamn.

Letters.

:/

Edited October 6, 2011 by Hyeron

[Tels]

And now we leave this earnest topic behind and come to something not-so completely unrelated, but very funny:

 

Here is what can go wrong if you allow anyone to translate your work:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxGtL3r2b9Q&feature=related

 

(I am still laughing, look at all the other Dimitri videos

[Hyeron]

WTH was that ? xD

[Tels]

WTH was that ? xD

 

I have no idea, but apparently there are about 100 different videos of the same sequence, all with different (and all of them wrong and completely unrelated) subtitles. And most of them are funny as hell!

[nbohr1more]

I once saw a pirated version of Star Wars: Episode 3 where the subtitles called the Jedi Knights... "Cheddar Knights"

[Melan]

I hereby grant permission to translate my TDM maps into any other language, as long as I receive notification, my credits remain intact in the released version (along with the translator, of course), and the translation work is good (I can't check this, but since I am a stickler for language, please do the job well or not at all).

[Sotha]

I don't care and I have no interest what you do with my missions as long as you credit me AND the original work you used in the resulting thingy/product.

 

Yes, this means translations are approved if they are done well.

 

Read the full declaration (and the resulting vituperation) here.

http://modetwo.net/d...post__p__265347

 

When the forum fucks up the link, find post #207 in the "translating the tdm gui" -thread.

 

Mappers who want to avoid damaging their work motivation for TDM should avoid post #216.

[7upMan]

If I may add, all of the mappers I approached gladly allowed to have their FMs translated. I have a hard time imagining a TDM mapper who will not gladly have his work brought to a wider audience, especially if it doesn't mean additional work for him.

 

However, should a mapper refuse to grant his permission, we as translators should respect that and not try to translate his work without his consent. All this talk of hosting stuff in Russia gets us nothing and will potentially only spoil the mood in the forum. After all, if a mapper finds an "illegally" translated version of his work, he might be so pissed off that he flat-out refuses to create any more maps. That would be a loss for everybody.

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

[Hyeron]

@Sotha: That's all one could reasonably ask for as a translator. Thanks. BTW, #216 is an interesting read, and while I do not agree on all of your views, they are respectable.

@7UpMan: On your last point, I agree more than you imagine.

@Jesps: forgot to thank you, which doesn't mean I don't. ^^

@Melan: thanks to you too.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Hyeron

[Springheel]

All this talk of hosting stuff in Russia gets us nothing and will potentially only spoil the mood in the forum.

 

Agreed. Along with the "I'm not going to host it unless you do it my way" talk.

[Tels]

Agreed. Along with the "I'm not going to host it unless you do it my way" talk.

 

While I 100% agree with 7upman (that we should respect the wish of an FM author to not have translation - even tho I do not think that this is a good or wise choice), I hope people will respect my wisht to host on my personal server paid by my own money only things that I like. My server - my rules.

 

And so far the rule has been its either public domain, or open source. Or created by me.

 

I'd never host a mission against the will of the author, nor would I host missions where the author puts any silly restrictions on it like not allowing translation (with credits, of course). And of course I am _not_ saying that authors need to put their missions under a creative-common-do-everything-you-want or public domain license. However, FMs with unclear licenses are already a shady area, tho.

 

Edit: Also I did wrote above that the "official" hosting on TDM is not affected by this, nor are other mirrors, so I don't think any FM author will have a problem with that - bloodgate.com is just like any other mirror, and if it's not available - who cares? In the past it did often run out of space and big missions where not hosted on it - and nobody really noticed. So I see this as a storm in a thiefpot er teapot

[nbohr1more]

In the world of "sticks vs carrots" motivation methods, I don't think that excluding missions from authors who refuse to allow any translation is as much of a stick as it is a carrot. The "Fan Mission" wiki is still available to list links to non-official missions and free hosting can be found anywhere. In fact, I strongly urge mission authors to take advantage of Moddb and host their missions at a personal profile site there as well (before they come to their senses and stop all this unlimited hosting ).

 

Regarding that "discussion" between Tels and Sotha, I can only say that it looks like Tels emotions were running high there. Tels seems to have a vision for the future of the way these missions are deployed and knows that Sotha's missions are amongst the most highly regarded ones. Sotha's lack of enthusiasm about this translation work leaves his project (and by extension TDM) without these prized examples to show the international communities.

 

I must admit, this is all academic as Sotha already released his missions before the translation framework came into existence. Whether Sotha will call for translation assistance before he packages his next mission for release is the only question. If the mood continues to be combative over this, there is a good chance that he will not ... or will not work on his missions in the first place.

 

I can certainly see why Tels is frustrated given the massive amount of work he poured into this project but Plasticman clearly pointed out that translators themselves can do both the retroactive "string fixes" and the new "string fixes" for unreleased missions.

 

The only real concern is when authors don't even attempt to ask for translators before releasing their missions.

 

That concern is still lodged squarely in the future as v1.06 does not have support for this new deployment method. Unless we are all to wait for v1.07... all the currently pending mission releases will necessarily be guilty of the same "released before conversion" that Sotha was in hot water about.

 

So, if you appreciate all the work that Tels has done to expand the audience of TDM... "after v1.07 is released" make sure to appeal to a translator or build your mission pre-translated to English using the new translation framework.

 

I think it's a very reasonable request.

 

I just think Tels is too hot tempered about the subject to be humble about the request.

 

Regardless of his moodiness, Tels is still cracking away at all this work and that deserves a great deal of respect. Yes, that should be a two-way street but I doubt he would continue his work if he didn't respect the mapping community.

 

Let's move past this chapter and agree to disagree and focus on our common interests, shall we?

 

Thanks,

 

nbohr1more

 

Edited October 6, 2011 by nbohr1more

[nbohr1more]

double post sorry

Edited October 6, 2011 by nbohr1more

[7upMan]

+ 1000 percent! You nailed it perfectly!