The Dark Mod 2.0 first impressions

[Serpentine]

You say you don't know how to use flashbombs. There's an area of the training mission that explains how to use them and then forces you to use one to get past a guard. What would you like to see instead?

I guess he just lured the guard out and went past or something. Either way, I think we could give the player an infinite supply of them for testing things out. Just an open box with a bunch of them, and one that you can pick up (like the quivers).

[161803398874989]

You are not hearing what I'm saying. I'm saying give the player a free-form challenge room after learning things. I am not talking about forcing the player into anything, or repetition, and quite frankly that is the stupidest idea I have ever heard, and it's insulting that you would think that was what I was suggesting. Ungoliant, please stop twisting my words. I'm sick of your strawman arguments.

 

I said I never use flashbombs. Of course I know how to use them. I just never use them because I never did other than once in the tutorial section.

Edited November 2, 2013 by 161803398874989

[Springheel]

I said I never use flashbombs. Of course I know how to use them

 

You can't get mad about people "twisting your words" if you're going to directly contradict yourself:

 

I never use moss arrows, flashbombs, throwing objects, the dedicated mantle button (though you could argue that is not necessary), and I'm sure a couple more things. I never really learnt to use them

 

So I ask again, in the area of the training mission that explains how to use flashbombs and then forces you to use one to get past a guard, what would you like to see instead?

[simplen00b]

Am I the only one that thinks certain 'review' threads like this are just a provocative method that some new players use to get special handholding privileges most of us would ignore otherwise?

And this is where this thread started to get a bit snarky.

 

@Thedarkbunny & 161803398874989 - Ungoliant may not be the only one who thinks what he does, but I'd say he's in a minority. As the majority of this thread (indeed, forum) demonstrates, most people here are happy to help newcomers, willing to respond to feedback & questions and give suggestions/help when they can.

 

You can't get mad about people "twisting your words" if you're going to directly contradict yourself:

Dunno if this is relevant but I'll chuck it out there anyway - FWIW, I know 'how' (in theory) to use flashbombs, but in practice I nearly always bork it, so I hardly ever bother using them. (I have especially fond memories of the times I managed to blind myself and leave the AI totally unaffected. )

 

So in my case, knowing how to do something doesn't mean I've learnt how to do it (i.e. properly), so 161803398874989's point isn't necessarily self-contradictory. Dunno if this is what he means though.

 

My 2¢.

[161803398874989]

You can't get mad about people "twisting your words" if you're going to directly contradict yourself:

 

So in my case, knowing how to do something doesn't mean I've learnt how to do it (i.e. properly), so 161803398874989's point isn't necessarily self-contradictory. Dunno if this is what he means though.

 

^

 

So I ask again, in the area of the training mission that explains how to use flashbombs and then forces you to use one to get past a guard, what would you like to see instead?

After teaching the player how to use flashbombs (I don't think that bit should be replaced at all), give the player some resources like flashbombs, water arrows etc. Then built a fairly well-lit room where they have (or can) use their tools to overcome the obstacles. More like a room from a regular fan mission rather than a training mission. That way while everything is still fresh in the player's mind, they can play around and experiment with the tools a bit more. You could even add a simple way back that resets the guards in the room.

Does that make sense?

[Springheel]

So after the stealth area is completed, have a room with a typical FM-like challenge (sneak past these guards and get the chalice) where the player needs to combine lots of skills? That could be done, but there would be nothing requiring the player to use flashbombs, which are usually only used when caught. If you script something where the player HAS to use them, then that pretty much reproduces what the stealth section already does.

[161803398874989]

The idea is not to force the player to use anything. The idea is to encourage the player to experiment and play around. In the process the player could use flashbombs should they choose to.

 

You could do a big room at the end, but I'd say you're better off with rooms in between smaller sections. After learning how to blackjack is an excellent place to host a room to play with the basics. Then after learning about arrows and flashbombs another room.

[Serpentine]

I am so confused. Pretty much putting this down to 'do whatever', which is already possible.

 

Moving along...

[Lex]

I don't wanna start a new topic, so I think I'll post my impressions here.

I've played the game for the first time, though I'm a fan of the Thief series for quite some time, it's my favouirve series probably.

 

My imressions from The Dark Mod... well, I'm impressed, really! The most astonishing things are lockpicking (that you have to listen to sounds), object interraction, arrow physics, the abilities to use sound (listen to guards, open the doors to hear better and so on). There are lots of amazing things you've done in the project, really.

 

My main suggestion on what to do is to make player model so that we could see hands and body even when not holding weapon, like in Thief3 or Dark Messiah. And also make a dynamic shadow so we could see our shadow while moving near light sources.

[demagogue]

There's a cvar to turn on the player shadow, so you can already do that now through the console. Maybe you can do a forum search for it.

 

The body & hand suggestion is a tough sell for a lot of us. It's something people have been criticizing in the T4 trailers.

 

If there were a way to have it for individual FMs, not the general mod, then I wouldn't mind seeing it in an FM if the author is passionate about it. I'm interested in FMs using alt-player models generally TBH.

[kyyrma]

The body & hand suggestion is a tough sell for a lot of us. It's something people have been criticizing in the T4 trailers.

 

Body awareness is kind of cool when its done right, see Dark Messiah, Arx Fatalis, Crysis, Mirror's Edge etc. However the Dinosaur-hands thing NuGarret seems to be doing is terribly annoying, as was the hands taking half of the screen in Dishonored.

 

Anyway, on the topic of the tutorial level, I think I agree on some of the points. Because you are free to come and go between the different tutorials, the set of equipment the player might have varies a lot. Some more structure or even just a suggested order could be an improvement. I know there is the slippery-slope argument to making things more accessible, but to put it in perspective, some of the games that are considered the very classics of the immersive-sim genre like Deus Ex, System Shock 2 or even the original Thief had way more straight-forward tutorial levels.

[Flanders]

I would like this too. The player shadow doesnt work well now. Body awareness requires new animations (mantling, rope/ladder climbing, combat etc.) and new code too. We need more personnel for that.

[Araneidae]

There's a cvar to turn on the player shadow, so you can already do that now through the console. Maybe you can do a forum search for it.

 

I did a quick google, and the answer is to edit the line

seta g_showPlayerShadow "0"

to read "1" in Darkmod.cfg. Haven't tried it yet though.

 

Edit: Have tried it now: well, that's rather creepy. I'll have to see how it sits, might actually be informative in telling me where the lighting is coming from.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Araneidae

[Flanders]

Or: open up the console in game and type "g_showplayershadow 1" and enter

[Springheel]

Be aware that the player shadow isn't really supported, so it's not going to be highly accurate.

[Araneidae]

Be aware that the player shadow isn't really supported, so it's not going to be highly accurate.

It certainly looks a little ugly and hard edged. I'll play a few missions with it and see whether it helps or hinders.

[Xarg]

I use the playershadow, and while it is a bit ugly, it does have its uses, mainly for how well covered you are and where the light is relative to you. The AI doesn't see it, so if you can deal with all those negatives, there is some use to it. I can see someone who uses it creating a nice riddle from readables based on stuff like shadow and compass directions, and the majority of the playerbase being very challenged or unable to complete it via the instructions as the shadow is off by default (and I imagine many don't like the current implementation).

[AluminumHaste]

The player model also doesn't have a lot of animations so shadows will probably look broken, or wrong in certain situations like mantling and such.

[Lux]

"Hand holding" in this context does not refer to using aggressive linearity to prevent the player from experimenting. It refers to actually telling and teaching the player things in an easy to understand manner. Right now, the training mission is just a gigantic information drop, which is not very conducive to memorizing stuff.

Not that I don't like the current training mission, but you can't expect players to remember everything they saw in there, and they're going to need a little more teaching.

 

I actually like our training mission bECAuse it doesn't lead you around. If you forget something you can load it back up and just do that part again, ala SS2 intro.

 

It would really suck to go through a bunch of stuff you don't need to get to what you do need, IMO.