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Eyeshine

Why no points for this walkthrough? I'm confused!

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I don't understand how this ghost walkthrough doesn't get any points for searches, at 35.00 mins when the chalice and the book of lessons is stolen, none of the guards say anything, the annotation says the loot won't be missed for another circuit but when I steal it, it's quickly noticed and always triggers a search, at 39.16 mins annotation say he loots items visible on the guards patrol route and incites a search, which is seen, so why no search points!

At 48.10 mins when the hammer smashes the statue the guards raise their hammers and search but the final stats show nothing but 4 * suspicious alerts, why is this happening, the best I have achieved in a ghost
play through is a stealth score of 6 because these events always trigger searches but I'm not seen.

I've been playing on 'challenging' and he plays on 'hardcore' is this the reason?

 

Edited by Eyeshine

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I could be wrong, but I suspect the stat screen only registers things that the AI can pin on you. The hammer alerts them, but if they don't have evidence of an intruder they don't assume it was one (despite what the vocals suggest).

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There's no indication of what level AI sight is being used. If the reviewer was using a lower level than you, his AI will take longer to notice missing items.

 

As for the hammer, Springheel's right. There's nothing to tie you to the hammer falling, so it won't show up in the stats.

 

As for the missing items in the hammer room, I'd have to look into why that's not attributed to the player in the video.

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There's no indication of what level AI sight is being used. If the reviewer was using a lower level than you, his AI will take longer to notice missing items.

 

As for the hammer, Springheel's right. There's nothing to tie you to the hammer falling, so it won't show up in the stats.

 

As for the missing items in the hammer room, I'd have to look into why that's not attributed to the player in the video.

He does show the settings at the beginning as AI vision and hearing on Hardcore, I've only played on challenging so he's on a higher level, guess he's just way better than me :laugh:

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Do stolen objects not register on the stat screen? They clearly register stolen objects at different points in the map.

 

Maybe Stolen Objects are supposed to be their own entry, like "Bodies noticed by AI".

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After looking through the stats stuff, I think there's a disconnect in a few places where AI are alerted.

 

I know we had a cascading problem a while back that I fixed, so I don't want to "fix" what I think might be a problem w/o thorough testing.

 

So I'll create a bugtracker issue and come back to it.

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Maybe Stolen Objects are supposed to be their own entry, like "Bodies noticed by AI".

 

They aren't now.

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A question that I've probably asked before, but I can't remember the answer:

 

If an AI leaves Idle State (or Alert Idle State) and rises up through the other alert states, stopping at each one, until he finally reaches Combat State, is that supposed to count as a single occurrence of reaching Combat State (state 5 on the stats screen), or are we supposed to be counting these rises as a single occurrence of reaching each of the states 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?

 

In other words, if an AI stops at each state before rising to the next, will his stats screen report:

 

Alert 1. 0*0: 0

Alert 2. 0*1: 0

Alert 3. 0*2: 0

Alert 4. 0*3: 0

Alert 5. 1*5: 5

 

For a stealth score of 5?

 

OR ...

 

Alert 1. 1*0: 0

Alert 2. 1*1: 1

Alert 3. 1*2: 2

Alert 4. 1*3: 3

Alert 5. 1*5: 5

 

For a stealth score of 11?

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I remember having one game, where I had one occurence of Alert 5, but no others. So I believe, at the moment, it is the first case. I think, it makes sense, to count the time, in which the AI is in one state. I.e. if the AI sees the player, it makes no sense, to cicle thorugh all the states, he instantly becomes fully alert. If he first hears the player, goes to search for him and, then sees the player it makes sense, to first have a lower alert state and add the fully alert later on.

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I remember having one game, where I had one occurence of Alert 5, but no others. So I believe, at the moment, it is the first case. I think, it makes sense, to count the time, in which the AI is in one state. I.e. if the AI sees the player, it makes no sense, to cicle thorugh all the states, he instantly becomes fully alert. If he first hears the player, goes to search for him and, then sees the player it makes sense, to first have a lower alert state and add the fully alert later on.

I've had the same result, Alert 5 * 1, it wasn't a ghost run, I blackjacked them all so no searches were triggered when I stole items but I was seen once, the thought occurs, if the AI is working correctly (considering it may not be in the video) surely it's not possible to do a clean ghost run if searches are always triggered by stolen items?

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If an AI leaves Idle State (or Alert Idle State) and rises up through the other alert states, stopping at each one, until he finally reaches Combat State, is that supposed to count as a single occurrence of reaching Combat State (state 5 on the stats screen), or are we supposed to be counting these rises as a single occurrence of reaching each of the states 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?

I saw both those scenarios when testing Zybl's patch for scripts querying mission scores. When stepping out into the light in front of a guard, sometimes the alert level would jump straight to 5, sometimes it'd clock up one or more intermediate alerts along the way. If it ramps up step by step, you end up with a higher stealth score for the same misdemeanor which doesn't feel quite right.

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My intuition is it could be defined in a time band. If the level is ramped up in less than maybe 3 or 5 seconds, it should count only the highest, as if it's one event.

 

But if it's more than that, they count separately, the logic being you were under alert and could have gotten out, but didn't, so get separate punishment.

 

Or more generally, after 3 seconds or so in a dynamic situation, it's more fair to call the 2 interactions separate "events".


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I don't understand how this ghost walkthrough doesn't get any points for searches, at 35.00 mins when the chalice and the book of lessons is stolen, none of the guards say anything, the annotation says the loot won't be missed for another circuit but when I steal it, it's quickly noticed and always triggers a search, at 39.16 mins annotation say he loots items visible on the guards patrol route and incites a search, which is seen, so why no search points!

At 48.10 mins when the hammer smashes the statue the guards raise their hammers and search but the final stats show nothing but 4 * suspicious alerts, why is this happening, the best I have achieved in a ghost

play through is a stealth score of 6 because these events always trigger searches but I'm not seen.

I've been playing on 'challenging' and he plays on 'hardcore' is this the reason?

 

Hi there, as the person that made this video, I can safely say it's all done on hardcore sight and sound, with hardest difficulty, although the lockpicking is set to trainer as I don't really see the appeal in taking longer to do the same action for reasons of bad timing.

 

The hammer is required to fall down, and isn't tied to you so it doesn't count against you.

For whatever reason, noisemaker arrows as I recall aren't tied to you either, but I believe this may be subject to change in the future.

I'm not sure how the interactions between objects and yourself work on stealth score, as throwing things and bumping into them is something I avoid in my runs and videos.

 

All this said, loot missing pisses the AI off, but doesn't raise your score. It's comparable to how AI seeing a blood stain tips them off to a body being somewhere, but doesn't alter your score in any way.

That said it's definitely something you'll want to avoid if you're being cautious, although I go for all loot in all situations.

 

If your critique is that the ghosting isn't as emphasized as the "all loot" aspect, you're totally correct, and I'm considering changing my video's titles to reflect that, but the basic gist is that I've done this as stealthily as possible while stealing everything, avoiding knockouts (and kills) as much as possible.

 

Wow, I thought that was me for a second. Everybody keeps pinching my title style :ph34r:

I feel like everyone should know what they're getting into, and it's easier to compare videos that way.

Sorry if I offend.

Edited by V-Man339
  • Like 1

I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.

Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.

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Hi there, as the person that made this video, I can safely say it's all done on hardcore sight and sound, with hardest difficulty, although the lockpicking is set to trainer as I don't really see the appeal in taking longer to do the same action for reasons of bad timing.

 

The hammer is required to fall down, and isn't tied to you so it doesn't count against you.

For whatever reason, noisemaker arrows as I recall aren't tied to you either, but I believe this may be subject to change in the future.

I'm not sure how the interactions between objects and yourself work on stealth score, as throwing things and bumping into them is something I avoid in my runs and videos.

 

All this said, loot missing pisses the AI off, but doesn't raise your score. It's comparable to how AI seeing a blood stain tips them off to a body being somewhere, but doesn't alter your score in any way.

That said it's definitely something you'll want to avoid if you're being cautious, although I go for all loot in all situations.

 

If your critique is that the ghosting isn't as emphasized as the "all loot" aspect, you're totally correct, and I'm considering changing my video's titles to reflect that, but the basic gist is that I've done this as stealthily as possible while stealing everything, avoiding knockouts (and kills) as much as possible.

 

I feel like everyone should know what they're getting into, and it's easier to compare videos that way.

Sorry if I offend.

Thanks for your explanation, I wasn't criticizing your video I was just confused as to why when you did the same thing as me I seemed to get points but you didn't?

My main issue was that searches, when a hammer is raised and the guard looks for you, didn't incur you any points but they did for me, such as when you say 'you loot items visible on the guards patrol route and incites a search' another guard also comes running with weapon drawn, but you didn't get any points for this search, why not, it's a search?

 

The alert levels state that a level 3 search incurs 2 points, a level 4 search when the guard runs and draws weapon incurs 3 points, both these searches happen on your play through but no points are incurred, that's what has confused me :huh:

Edited by Eyeshine

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Thanks for your explanation, I wasn't criticizing your video I was just confused as to why when you did the same thing as me I seemed to get points but you didn't?

My main issue was that searches, when a hammer is raised and the guard looks for you, didn't incur you any points but they did for me, such as when you say 'you loot items visible on the guards patrol route and incites a search' another guard also comes running with weapon drawn, but you didn't get any points for this search, why not, it's a search?

 

The alert levels state that a level 3 search incurs 2 points, a level 4 search when the guard runs and draws weapon incurs 3 points, both these searches happen on your play through but no points are incurred, that's what has confused me :huh:

To be blunt, I can almost bank money that it's after the hammer falls.

90% of my issues were from how insanely sensitive the AI was during that search mode, and it's why I preemptively knock out that torch beforehand and slowly creep almost the entire rest of the way.


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.

Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.

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To be blunt, I can almost bank money that it's after the hammer falls.

90% of my issues were from how insanely sensitive the AI was during that search mode, and it's why I preemptively knock out that torch beforehand and slowly creep almost the entire rest of the way.

You could be right, unfortunately, it's not possible to determine which searches incurred a penalty but I have had a perfect play through (no alerts at all) up until the chapel and then as you say the AI becomes hyper sensitive and silently extinguishing a candle brings the guards running from the other end of the chapel!

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You could be right, unfortunately, it's not possible to determine which searches incurred a penalty but I have had a perfect play through (no alerts at all) up until the chapel and then as you say the AI becomes hyper sensitive and silently extinguishing a candle brings the guards running from the other end of the chapel!

If you don't set up your escape route beforehand you WILL raise the score.

There's a useful console command for highlighting above AI how alert they are, or at least how much they hear and react to.it. At the end of the day, the uber-alert AI is your biggest challenge. It's hard to tell manually since you'll step on the walkway and the most you have to visually identify with is the AI walking beneath it, but that's them becoming alert.

Edited by V-Man339

I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.

Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.

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