Mage Guild And Inventors' Guild...

[Komag]

"Inventor's Guild" works fine for me, I'm for keeping it

[Ombrenuit]

The Inventor's Guild is a fine name. Funny though, whether we like it or not, the team couldn't care less. So let's make an argument about it. In fact, let's see if we can make this topic like every other and get it to drag on for another 6 pages to absolutely no result? It'll be a challenge but...Zylon, you up for it?

 

Where's Oddity when you need him. As soon as he gets here...whoa boy. You kids will jumping all over this thread.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Ombrenuit

[Darkness_Falls]

EDIT: Just saw Ishtvan's post. The problem with explanations like that... is that you need an explanation at all. A good name doesn't need to be explained to make sense.

So, Builders build things. Keepers keep things. Hammers hammer things. And Inventors invent things. I see no problem...

[Dram]

The Inventor's Guild is a fine name. Funny though, whether we like it or not, the team couldn't care less.

 

This is not true. If the whole team agreed that this idea was soooooo uber great that it HAD to be in then it would. But this is just so irrelevant. Not trying to insult anyone mind, just that I like Inventor's guild myself. Though I like Mechanists and Hammerites more, we have to abide to copyright laws.

[SneaksieDave]

Decision:

 

-Tweak faction names,

 

or,

 

-make AI aware of potential hiding spots and doorways and each other and sight and sound and touch,

-create a solution so that light can shine through surfaces,

-create weather effects

-animate the AI

-create a diverse sound library

-create the stim/response system

-create test and play environments

-develop the light gem

-develop rendering optimizations beyond those included in Doom3

-create the objectives system

-create new models

-develop the thieves' arsenal including rope arrows

-create new textures and particle effects

-bugfixing

-any of 1000 other tasks anyone in the community could help out with...

 

Hmmmmmm...

[Delacroix]

^ That's a pretty silly example. It's like deciding between going to the toilet or working on the cure for cancer. It's entirely possible to take a pee before getting down to the business of whatever it is that important to you. The two things in no way clash.

 

Anyway, I agree with ZB on the name, preferring something like Engineer's Guild. Continuing with the negativity, as much as folks keep saying this isn't Thief, I find the Builders organisation does a good job of sounding like a ripoff of the Hammerites.

 

*goes back to lurking where it's safer...*

[SneaksieDave]

With that post ^ you have demonstrated clearly that you don't know about the process and what it can involve. Nor about prioritizing and timelines.

[Springheel]

And of course, anyone who had actually bothered to read the wiki would know they aren't just engineers.

[Gildoran]

Um... just what is involved in changing a faction's name? I kind of figured it would just be a matter of changing what it's called on the Wiki... though admittedly most team members do have more important things to do than to search the wiki for references to "Inventor's Guild".

[SneaksieDave]

It's not the changing; it's the arguing for 17 pages over 3 weeks about settling on a name, while all other work stops due to the argument and the inevitable bruised egos.

[Gildoran]

Good point... that does seem to always happen.

[ZylonBane]

Bruised egos? You mean someone on the team actually thought "Inventor's Guild" was a good idea?

 

Granted, it's a better name than "Astronaut, Fireman, and Racecar Drivers Guild".

[SneaksieDave]

Nah, that was just in regard to every debate the team gets into.

[sparhawk]

It's not the changing; it's the arguing for 17 pages over 3 weeks about settling on a name, while all other work stops due to the argument and the inevitable bruised egos.

 

I wonder which work stopped because of this discussion?

[SneaksieDave]

Because of this thread alone, we've decided to cut all undead from the game.

[Delacroix]

With that post ^ you have demonstrated clearly that you don't know about the process and what it can involve. Nor about prioritizing and timelines.

 

Actually I have quite a lot of experience arguing ultimately unimportant stuff on the internet. The problem is that you posted "Tweak faction names" when you really meant "arguing for weeks over tweaking faction names" which are two different things. Now if devs are going to spend a whooping 3 weeks without accomplishing anything else, all because they take part in an internet thread, then yes, there is a problem.

 

Here's a TDM dev who actually seems to know something about game development:

 

I wonder which work stopped because of this discussion?

 

Does the team have specific roles, or does everyone have a hand in everything? If people are taking time out of the jobs they are supposed to be doing to argue a name in an internet thread, then I'm not the one who has problems prioritising.

[SneaksieDave]

Based on a comment agreeing that this thread has been a complete waste of time?

 

Guys our troubles are ended, we can hire this new project manager to guide us to glory. Back to the pits, you should all be filling your proper roles!

[Delacroix]

And of course, anyone who had actually bothered to read the wiki would know they aren't just engineers.

 

According to the wiki, this guild includes a rather diverse number of groups, and it seems odd to label them all as "inventors" when from the description it seems as though inventors would make up one small portion of this group. It's like if a bunch of graphic designers, ballet dancers and guitar players joined together and called themselves the Artist's Guild.

 

And no comment on the Builders? Surely those responsible for the factions in the universe could get very creative when it comes to thinking up fanatical religions, and when this mod looks so damn good, it's a shame to see something that looks so cut & pasted from Thief.

[Delacroix]

Based on a comment agreeing that this thread has been a complete waste of time?

 

You are the one claiming spending time on the forum cuts into other work. Changing a name doesn't equal arguing on a forum.

 

you should all be filling your proper roles!

 

That's what people do in any good business, their job. As a graphic designer for a magazine I manage to do my job and interact with my coworkers and even spend time browsing and posting on internet forums. Imagine that!

[SneaksieDave]

I think someone wants to move from the art dept into management! Keep reaching for the sky, sport!

 

How can you sit there even for a moment and actually pretend to have a grasp on any of this? You don't, and you should face it. That you should march onto a forum and tell a team which has worked on a project for two years how they should manage it? What makes you so sure there haven't already been extensive debates behind the scenes about faction names? Because they don't show up on the public boards? At quick glance, we have more the 40,000 posts you haven't seen. Since you didn't understand the previous gentle sarcastic gibing - when the obvious intention was to state the facts and move on - let's put it in plain, simple words:

 

There are actual important things demanding attention and effort right now, which people are working on, over a bunch of factions and fictions which take absolute last priority in the development of a toolkit. I attempted to make that point clear in my first post, but apparently you alone and ZylonBane didn't get it.

 

And with that, it's enough time wasted on this.

[ZylonBane]

You're the only loony who seems to believe that time spent on a message board would otherwise be spent working.

 

Doesn't work that way.

[Delacroix]

I think someone wants to move from the art dept into management! Keep reaching for the sky, sport!

 

Er, what? I point out that I'm able to do my job and a bunch of other stuff without that other stuff keeping me from working, and you make some strange comment about me wanting to work in management? Makes no sense.

 

How can you sit there even for a moment and actually pretend to have a grasp on any of this?

 

You tried to claim that doing something as simple as changing a name would stop development on other things, I pointed out that the two things aren't really equal and thus ridiculous to compare them. I point out that doing one thing doesn't have to impact the other, and all you can do is continue to spout the "you don't know what you're talking about" line.

 

For anyone on the team who cares:

 

What exactly was the reasoning behind the creation of the Inventors Guild? Reading the description it seems as though it's the TDM's version of Thief's Mechanist faction without the thing that unified the Mechanists - religion. Take religion away from the Mechanists and they no longer have a reason to be one large group, instead breaking off into smaller groups. Scientists and engineers and smiths and labourers are such varied roles that it doesn't make much sense from them to form a group to protect their needs and wants when these things would be so varied.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Delacroix

[Vadrosaul]

You're the only loony who seems to believe that time spent on a message board would otherwise be spent working.

 

Doesn't work that way.

Too true. A lot of employers seem to still think that way. They don't understand that people all have their own downtime they spend, and they'll spend it anywhere. Taking away an avenue or form of downtime will only cause the employee to look elsewhere, not to spend that time working.

[Springheel]

It's like if a bunch of graphic designers, ballet dancers and guitar players joined together and called themselves the Artist's Guild.

 

Yes, that would be unprecedented.

 

I haven't heard any name put forward as an alternative that doesn't suffer from the same problem.

 

Mappers who don't like the name can do something mind bogglingly creative and CHANGE IT. Believe it or not, we won't send anyone to your house to delete the mod from your computer.

 

Now that we've settled that, how about we argue about the eye colour of the builder guards?

[SneaksieDave]

Oh what the hell, it's all in fun right? And time grows on trees. I think a couple or few people are taking a sarcastic post (way back) meant to poke fun and make a point and end it, and solidifying their own perceived meanings from it. No one said team members don't have down time. No one said team members should have their noses to the grind. No one said team members don't chat about things to other members, or family, since the mod is largely 30+ year olds with families. In fact, no one even said that doing one task precludes doing another simultaneously. The point that people continue to miss is one you cannot possibly debate, because yes (sorry Delacroix!) you don't know from the outside.

 

Someone from the team doesn't just go and decide something and say "that's the way it is." We do debate, every single thing that goes into the mod, ad nauseum. Remember: more than forty-thousands posts you haven't seen. I'll restate it for those who continue to miss it or are for some reason not figuring it out: these things were discussed, and always are discussed. To suggest the team revisit old decisions already 'made', IS making the 'loony' suggestion that the team waste time otherwise spent on design. Believe it or not, those designs require discussions and decisions, too. And to hit again on another facet of the argument people continue to miss: at this stage in the game, we barely care. It's unimportant right now, you see? We've been through it. We've been here two years. I think the team knows how things go on back here.

 

We're busy making maps and zombies and linked lighting and rendering optimizations and user friendly triggers and S&R and AI routines and sounds and textures and...

 

We don't care to reopen a debate about something so silly as a faction name at this point. We could, on the day before first release, decide to call them the Uncle Gay's Baker's Guild. Who cares? Does that make it clearer, I hope? If not, I'm sorry I can't help further; you'll have to get some priorities experience in order to stop obsessing over backburner things when there are currently big and more important issues to tackle instead.

 

And as SH (who has more a gift of getting to the point than I do apparently) said, if you don't like it, call it something else. This is your toolkit.

 

Either way, I say guard eyes should be blue, because blue is more rare, and cold, it's intimidating and tends to hold the gaze. Wolf-like, even. Also, we could say that this is a side effect of the blessing of the Builder's touch. Brown is far more common, and might actually make the player feel a connection with the guards. In this adversarial context, the player should feel distanced from guards. The only time they should have a bond with the guards is when deciding whether to murder, or incapacitate, when they'd hopefully have mercy and in which case, they'd probably be far from or behind them, and not seeing their eyes at all.

 

Either that or red. Any opposing opinions are wrong. And now I'll have to cut that particle I was working on, because SH brought up the dreaded eye color topic once again. Damn youuuuu!