Jump to content


Photo

ttlg - stuck in the past...


  • Please log in to reply
237 replies to this topic

#26 Baddcog

Baddcog

    Mod hero

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5360 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 02:11 PM

When I started gaming, there were no personal computers in the home where I lived. We had Atari 2600, Colecovision, Intellivison. Consoles that did little more than push little blocks around the screen. lol I still have that old Atari and all the games I owned for it. Doesn't work anymore, sadly.


I don't know of anyone else who also had an intellivision. Gotta love that 9 digit keypad and wheel at the bottom, lol.
Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

#27 Baddcog

Baddcog

    Mod hero

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5360 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 02:27 PM

I agree that it's disappointing to witness the clear lack of interest in general at TTLG. That's where I cut my PC gaming teeth, where I learned to map, where I spent years mapping, modelling and helping out the community.
I've long lost count but I'd say half of the FM's have my custom models in them.

And yet when I posted my contest map over there I also got very few responses.

But mostly it's just sad to see how much negativity cropped up over there over TDM for 2 reasons.
1-there was no need for the negativity that was generated, it was just a few haters stirring the pot.
2-TTLG was always a positive forum, and that negativity was so unlike the TTLG I had always known.

That aside, the negativity has seemed to pretty much fade from existence, so at least that's a thing of the past. And it just seems very quite over there all together. A few oldies hanging out, some people are just gone, some are over here now.

Gaming has changed a lot, but I don't believe PC gaming is coming to an end or dying at all. I know most people here don't use Steam and I've said this before, but Steam is HUGE. Almost every released game is on Steam these days including a lot of indie titles that would be hard to get/unheard of otherwise.
Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

#28 BrokenArts

BrokenArts

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 469 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:01 PM

Ohhh you haven't ventured into Comm Chat have you? ;) You want negativity sometimes, go in there.

#29 demagogue

demagogue

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5503 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:41 PM

Yeah things are quiet there generally. There was a time right before TDM came out and just after where there was a feeling of "us" vs "them", but I agree even that's sort of faded now and there's a general burn out. You could see it as early as when the T2Gold missions came out and they just couldn't get a group to finish them, and I imagine when they get the source code compiling, what energy there will be to do something with it -- compared to if those things had happened in 2002(!). And it all has the vibe of a predictable psychology to it. (That said, I still hope the T2G OMs get finished and the sourcecode does great things.)

I disagree with someone that noted that TDS didn't draw new blood for TTLG. I remember a number of people that joined because of TDS and wanted to go on and on about how awesome it was, and they almost all got stomped on for their youthful excitement and just didn't stick around (IIRC, NovaIce, Keepress something..., some others).

But I think it's also part of the theme that it was always the FMs that kept the group together, and if people weren't playing the FMs they didn't have a reason to stay. That same idea makes me think that Darkmod is going to be what keeps the FM forum there ticking since again it will be the FMs that keep them coming back, especially if when T4 comes out without an editor, and especially in 2 or so years from now, I suspect more TDM FMs will be made than T2 ones and TDM might really start hitting a stride as mappers learn how to really pull cool stuff from it.

What I think might inject some energy back into the community would be, first probably, a really great campaign that shows Darkmod off like a proper full-feature game, and also gives people an image that captures the imagination, that really brings its world to life.

But second, just my own opinion, stretching the wings of stealth gameplay into new genres -- cyber punk, scifi, ninja, early modern, spy, horror. The catch with that second route is how much work they would need (for each -one-!) when Darkmod itself is in such need of contributors. And it would (probably) require a branch version that can't update along with TDM ... So now players would need a whole new install (another 2GB, again for each one), its own FMs (from an already small pool of authors), it would have to bugfix and update on its own path, new fixes & features in TDM wouldn't tag along or would need a lot of work to port. I think it would be cool and help shake people out of their complacency, but a lot going against it too. Then I wonder how far you could realistically push other genres inside regular TDM.
Posted Image

#30 lost_soul

lost_soul

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1456 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:08 PM

I feel sorry for any newbies who had their heads bitten off when they went on TTLG to talk about how much they loved TDS. I think if I had never played T1, I would have really loved TDS too. Thus I would avoid giving any new users flack if they say TDS is/was a great game: it was still better than a lot of mainstream games.

If only LGS had released the source code to the Dark Engine before they closed... In 2001, it was already outdated thanks to the Quake 3 and Unreal engine which were far more portable and flexible.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.


#31 demagogue

demagogue

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5503 posts

Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:41 PM

If only LGS had released the source code to the Dark Engine before they closed...


This is easy to forgive because they learned like the day before that they were terminated and had the next day to clear everything out. It's a wonder the source code ever got out at all 10 years later!
Posted Image

#32 stumpy

stumpy

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1935 posts

Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:03 AM

if ttlg are not interested in TDM then who are all the people (regardless of search bots) who view fan mission release posts, the amount of views is a lot higher than other posts, compaired to the number of replies.

#33 brethren

brethren

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 562 posts

Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:27 AM

One thought - and I'm not even sure I'm 100% aboard on this theory - but I think the reason T1/T2 FMs get long threads over at TTLG and such and maybe TDM FMs do not, at least at the moment, is because of the stage of development each game is at thus far. Most responses in long threads (by example, the recent release of The Last Lighthouse Keeper, which is up to 12 pages) are people asking for help and hints on how to proceed.

I think in general T1/T2 FMs are more sophisticated and in-depth and larger, primarily because the game has been around so long and authors know how to do intricate and detailed things with brushwork, objectives, S&R, custom AI and whatnot. Many (but not all) TDM missions released are fairly straightforward and smaller in size, mainly because authors are still getting used to the editor and learning how it all works. That's not to say that they're bad, not at all, but objectives are usually easy enough to figure out, and it's just a matter of doing it. Steal this object, get to this location, kill this AI.

Case in point is the recent mission released by Biker, the whole reason for this thread. It's a cool conversion, but figuring out what to do isn't going to keep anyone up all night. However, if you look at Heart of Lone Salvation, probably the most complex TDM mission to date, the thread is over 10 pages long.

I haven't heard much in the way of negative criticism recently over at TTLG on TDM, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. People will warm up as the mod evolves. I think the only real glaring thing that sticks out that might keep Thief players away is difference in difficulty between the two games, and it sounds like that's being addressed.

#34 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:03 AM

But second, just my own opinion, stretching the wings of stealth gameplay into new genres -- cyber punk, scifi, ninja, early modern, spy, horror. The catch with that second route is how much work they would need (for each -one-!) when Darkmod itself is in such need of contributors. And it would (probably) require a branch version that can't update along with TDM ... So now players would need a whole new install (another 2GB, again for each one), its own FMs (from an already small pool of authors), it would have to bugfix and update on its own path, new fixes & features in TDM wouldn't tag along or would need a lot of work to port. I think it would be cool and help shake people out of their complacency, but a lot going against it too. Then I wonder how far you could realistically push other genres inside regular TDM.

I have also had thoughts about something like that, and even have a few ideas for some sort of paranoid cyberpunk-meets-surveillance campaign, but there are all the hurdles you have mentioned. Building missions themselves is a huge time investment, not to mention a whole TC with assets, coding and all that. But you know that much better than I. There is also the narrative problem - thieving works great with single missions, but a game experience like Deus Ex cannot be realised in the span of one FM. Which is one of the reasons why, in spite of an editor, there are so few DX maps out there: basically Zodiac, Redsun 2020, Hotel Carone, the humorous 80 Proof, the ultimate blue balls DX mod The Cassandra Project, and of course the enormous mountain of coolness that is The Nameless Mod.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#35 Macsen

Macsen

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2104 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 03:26 PM

I feel sorry for any newbies who had their heads bitten off when they went on TTLG to talk about how much they loved TDS.

Yes I think there was a bit of a bullying culture where people who liked that game were ostracised. It wasn't as good as T1 and T2 but it was still a pretty good game.

I've come out of the closet - I'm a TDS fan and proud. :)

#36 New Horizon

New Horizon

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13902 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 03:33 PM

I liked it too, but not to the point where I can call myself a fan. I spent enough time in the editor so I must have liked something about it. I guess I liked the game I saw beneath all the poor decisions, and I felt if I could just push some of those poor decisions aside, it might help fans of the originals enjoy it too. In some cases it did, I've had a few folks tell me that The Minimalist Project made the game enjoyable for them.

In the end, it proved far more satisfying to come here and be a part of Broken Glass in whatever limited way I could.

#37 Macsen

Macsen

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2104 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 03:40 PM

I've had a few folks tell me that The Minimalist Project made the game enjoyable for them.

That's a good point, I played with The Minimalist Project installed from the off and it made a big difference. Thanks for that.

Also you had to exercise some self-restraint and try to play it as you would Thief 1&2, and ignore the 3rd person mode. :ph34r:

#38 New Horizon

New Horizon

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13902 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 03:48 PM

Also you had to exercise some self-restraint and try to play it as you would Thief 1&2, and ignore the 3rd person mode. :ph34r:


Haha, that's why I removed the third person button mapping in that final Minimalist release. lol

#39 ungoliant

ungoliant

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1747 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 04:27 PM

it broke the cabal for me though :(

#40 Irenices

Irenices

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:47 PM

Man i stopped going to ttlg quite a while ago due to the bitchy negativeness that seems to have overtaken that forum, i glanced there a minute ago to check out TDM related news there and i see there is no mention of tdm on the site at all anywhere now, did they remove it? Is tdm some kind of butthurt dont you dare speak its name topic over there now?

I know they didnt purge all mention of it but didn't it used to have its own forum or subforum, or mention in the editors guild or something.

Edited by Irenices, 02 April 2011 - 07:51 PM.


#41 New Horizon

New Horizon

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13902 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:20 PM

Man i stopped going to ttlg quite a while ago due to the bitchy negativeness that seems to have overtaken that forum, i glanced there a minute ago to check out TDM related news there and i see there is no mention of tdm on the site at all anywhere now, did they remove it? Is tdm some kind of butthurt dont you dare speak its name topic over there now?

I know they didnt purge all mention of it but didn't it used to have its own forum or subforum, or mention in the editors guild or something.


We asked to have the TDM FM forum merged back into the Thief FM's forum because people were completely missing our mission releases.

#42 Irenices

Irenices

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:27 PM

Ah i figured it would say Thief & Dark mod missions in the subtext or something, may want to ask them to add that as i would have no clue to look there.

#43 demagogue

demagogue

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5503 posts

Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:27 PM

In the end, it proved far more satisfying to come here and be a part of Broken Glass in whatever limited way I could.


Yeah, I don't think I really understood the power and appeal of an big open source project until Dark Mod.

I mean I still find it a little exciting I can open up the source code, which *anybody* can get and compile, and see how things are done, and if there's something I think could use tweaking, I can (politely) bring it up, or hell just do it locally. The whole thing with fans "owning" it and "authenticity" aren't just slogans. It's really just us and our standards, and no one trying to get money out of it watering it down or whatever (which LGS didn't do either, water it down I mean, then went out of business for being so uncompromising. The lesson I took from that is if you don't want it watered down, DIY.)

But I would have been this excited if the Thief 2 source code had come out years ago and they got it compiling too. I mean I'm excited the source is out now and like reading it and thinking about tweaks, but if it had happened years ago, that could have turned into a big open source project we could have shared too (assuming it was opened, which isn't a given). That's just to say it's not some elitist or anti-Thief thing that makes an open "stealthy game" project special; it's the openness & community spirit itself. But having something that's entirely ours literally from scratch, from the ground up, is a bit special too. It just shouldn't be seen as an exclusive thing but an inclusive thing.

I don't know, though. To be honest, despite all of what I just said, I don't put a lot of stock into big theories, conspiracy or otherwise, about things being "symbolic of X" or "elitist" or "the heart of the community"... FGS it's a game. I'll tell you what it really signifies: running, hiding, jumping, and frobbing stuff. I'm just happy we have a way to make good FMs and improve it over time.
Posted Image

#44 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:43 AM

Food for thought from Robert Yang's blog: Death of the Mod? He speaks of an interesting cultural shift; I wonder if the thesis is correct (I frankly know too little about the mainstream of user-driven efforts to say something with authority), and how much it has affected TDM's place in the gaming environment. Key passage (in a comment, actually):

Of course people will keep modding. I still mod too.

However, I AM saying that what we currently think of as "mods" is much less culturally significant.

Production-wise, a "mod" that is "moddiest" will be more of the "Fallout UI fix" type and less of the "10 new weapons, 100 new missions, total conversion" type.

If you have the resources to do a huge TC in the first place, you'll do a standalone. UDK is standalone. Unity is standalone. Gamemaker is standalone. RPGMaker is standalone.

Making a huge mod doesn't make any sense anymore, and that's what's dead. And that's good.

Also, from RPS:

I define mods as this: whether you need another game installed in order to play it. That’s it.

And it makes all the difference. That’s why The Dark Mod has such a small player base when it should be exploding. That’s why no one plays those great Crysis mods. The benefits of having an asset library and code base are getting outstripped by the difficulty and hassle of getting a mod running.




Edited by Melan, 07 April 2011 - 02:49 AM.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#45 Briareos H

Briareos H

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 184 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:21 AM

Might be true but let's not forget TDM started when there was no satisfying standalone framework.
This is a very recent trend.

I wouldn't mind seeing TDM on the UDK though ;)

#46 Melan

Melan

    Contest Winner, Wordsmith

  • Campaign Dev
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4451 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:43 AM

Correct. If it was started today, TDM would probably be made for Xreal (as it has been said by team members). Back in 2004 or 2005, there wasn't so much choice.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#47 New Horizon

New Horizon

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13902 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:50 AM

Might be true but let's not forget TDM started when there was no satisfying standalone framework.
This is a very recent trend.

I wouldn't mind seeing TDM on the UDK though ;)


UDK, from my understanding, wouldn't be a great fit. Considering it's on a completely different engine, it would require ditching a lot of work, essentially starting from the ground up.

If the mod ever had to be ported, my suggestion is one of the updated Quake 3 engines...like xreal...or the newest incarnation of Xreal, which I think is called ET-Xreal. It supports Doom 3 animations, material files and I believe the particle system too. The renderer has been updated to support all the latest goodies, but optimized to run better than if we tried to hack the same stuff into the D3 engine. If D3 were to never go open source, that would be the engine on the top of the list to consider.

#48 nbohr1more

nbohr1more

    Darkmod PR, Wordsmith

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9508 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 02:13 PM

The Death of Mods has nothing to do with the momentum towards "indie" as Robert stated.

The Death of Mods is more about new kids wanting to mod on new engines and finding that these "new engines" reside within games that are protected by draconian DRM.

Look at the GTA IV modding scene, you essentially (and ironically?) have to break the law in order to add any of the mods to the game. I believe I read that Bulletstorm has an encrypted config file such that you need to use hacking tools to change the damn FOV values.

Should these kids instead look to older engines? Yes.

Unfortunately, many cannot look past the limitations of older engines and simply don't feel it's worth it to put the effort in. Then, of course, is the fact that many modders use games they have in their library (economics alone will cause modders to gravitate to what they own). The new generation "own" games that cannot be touched without violating DMCA.
Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

http://www.indiedb.c...ds/the-dark-mod

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

#49 Shadowhide

Shadowhide

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1282 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:31 PM

Look at the GTA IV modding scene, you essentially (and ironically?) have to break the law in order to add any of the mods to the game. I believe I read that Bulletstorm has an encrypted config file such that you need to use hacking tools to change the damn FOV values.


But our favourite games have gorgeous editor - DromEd.Its absolutely stunning and brilliant tool.

For example you can make player play as frog without any coding :) so lets back to our roots !

by the way,gta4 is one of the best games of last 5 years...

Edited by Shadowhide, 07 April 2011 - 03:40 PM.

Proceed with caution!

#50 demagogue

demagogue

    Mod hero

  • Active Developer
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5503 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 07:41 PM

I agree with nbhor, the drop in the modding scene is like the drop in the toolhead scene in contemporary cars. When you open the hood of a modern car you don't see an engine that's meant to be tooled with like one from the 70s, half of it is computer controlled, and the other half is built like in a black box that can hold the user's hand on the outside at the cost of being an impenetrable void on the inside. It doesn't even *look* like a car engine anymore, but this shell of "don't touch me". It just deflates the whole energy to want to mess with it. And the same goes for "locking up" modern games. There was this period when the spirit of the times was to open games and game engines up, like an extension of the spirit to have open worlds. But now that time has largely passed, where game engines are also getting put in a black box so they can hold the gamer's hand on the outside and be a void on the inside... And the slack is getting picked up by things like UDK and Unity.

But also, I think the ambitions of game-makers is evolving too, and after 15 years of making maps for other games they're thinking about making their own games from scratch now that the tools and making assets is more down to earth.

And then some of it is just a culture thing. Dark Mod is sort of unique in that it went to the engine that was actually best suited for it at the time. But for most projects, the people *start* with the game or engine they want to work on and the mindset that goes with it (cf. the vast majority of Doom3 mods), and *then* think about what kind of map or game they think fits with that culture. And these days those iPhone or "retro" type games are all the rage so people get wrapped up in that vibe and want to ride the coattails.

What I *wish* would happen would be a lot more experimentation with genre forms and people trying to develop gameplay forms in a more self-aware way, like influential art schools or some bands used to do, and use whatever tools best let them do it. (Though that would also be part of the "death of modding" story -- it's just the scene we find ourselves in -- but it pushes it in a different, better direction IMO.) I guess that has been done to a certain extent for some projects (like Minecraft), but most of the scene isn't that self-aware.
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users