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I'd like to better understand what you want. The design of dragging bodies is to hold frob (key down) to drag and release frob (key up) to let go. That way it's impossible to walk away while unintentionally dragging a body. Plus, it's quick to grab and move several body limbs in rapid succession. This is thought to provide a better experience, especially for new players. Towards the beginning of this thread, I created a "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar. https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22198-feature-proposal-frob-to-use-world-item/&do=findComment&comment=487580 "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior", default:"1" Which drag body behavior? 1 --- on frob key up, drop body (limb). 0 --- on second frob, drop body (limb), TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. That cvar was removed shortly afterwards, because it was said that it wasn't needed. With that cvar set to 0, a second frob would be required to let go of the body. Is that the behavior that you want? If so, I can add that cvar back. Also, I saw elsewhere that you want the ability to revert back to the old way. If you mean that all of the controls match TDM 2.11, that can be done with "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" and there will be a menu setting to disable it as well.

Extensive customization options are appropriate during the pre-release testing or early roll out of a new feature. The people testing the feature can't know yet what configuration will work best for them, much less the people making the patch. My expectation is that by the time you have to make a final decision about including this patch in the next official update of TDM, there will be a rough consensus about the optimal parameters for the new mechanics, and you will only need one toggle for the new behavior. Or, preferably, there would be no need for an option at all if we can only get over our OCD about preserving arbitrary semantic grouping in our key-bind allocations; and embrace a superior control scheme that's not designed around highlighting an old gimmick feature whose trendiness expired with the Half-Life 2 era of FPS. But that's a pipe dream. Maybe instead we can just all agree that the general>gameplay options are getting a bit crowded. Perhaps we could split some of them off into an "appearance" or "accessibility" tag. As more people make their own mods and we modernize our accessibility options it is going to become a problem regardless. Best to get ahead of it. I agree, and that is one of TDM's strengths. It borrows and combines many of the best features from the three beloved Thief games, but it also gives FM creators tools to expand their creative vision in new directions. To some Thief purists that will never be an enticing proposition. But I don't see this feature as throwing a bone to those Thief players specifically, but just player in general who are bouncing off our game because it deviates from some genre conventions for no obvious reason, which makes them think this is an unpolished product. It is true that Thief was what set these conventions, and (shockingly/s) it is mostly Thief players who are interested enough in TDM to give it a try... but our responsibility to address these problems (if we can) is the same as if AMD or Linux players were having technical problems with TDM. They are people who we want to be part of our community because we never know if one of them might make the next FM like Iris, or do something crazy-innovative with TDM that we can't even imagine!

Thanks for the explanation. The building where this happens is an "open plan" warehouse, 4 stories, with a wall at one end but 2 doorways in the wall on each side, so 8 total: Each doorway is a visportal. They are lined up on the X-plane. First question, are all of these portals unnecessary? They do reduce the tris somewhat, but maybe not worth it? Second question, I recall occasional problems when visportals are lined up exactly. Maybe I'll move each of them a slightly different amount in the x direction, see if that helps. I'll experiment and let you know what I find.

So far yes. But I haven't moved past that, so I don't know what other problems might come up, if any. I don't know if model formats are going to be a problem.

I think php links are for the "mission database" on TDM website. You can go there and browse released missions without downloading TDM. If not, then php is just some remnant of the past I would say: better use XML links.

Added per-game web search urls and defaulted TDM to site:thedarkmod.com. I'm working on downloading/parsing FM information and seeing what I can do with it. I really think an in-app downloader would make things a lot more convenient.

But I mean you want me to take a dependency on parsing the edit page of a wiki article though? And trusting it to stay there, stay updated, and the format not change? Heck, the page even changes depending on if you have edit permission or not, and I have no way to know about updates either without just constantly re-downloading it.

Not to be a nag, but I was thinking about the columns problem. If you go to the view source tab in the wiki article: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Missions_for_The_Dark_Mod&action=edit The raw table data is accessible directly: |- !align=left|{{TDM-FM|written|Written in Stone}} |Bikerdude, Amadeus, Dragofer |{{Forumlink|https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21265-written-in-stone-beta-210-only-20220128/}} |2022-01-28 |338 |Yes |Yes |CCC 22, Elixir |City Missions |Undead, Horror Themes |- Each pipe character represents one of the columns.

I'm the developer of AngelLoader, a fan mission loader/manager for Thief 1/2/3/SS2. I recently decided to try adding Dark Mod support. The latest release is here: https://github.com/FenPhoenix/AngelLoader/releases I'm going to keep a log of issues, ideas, notes, etc. here and we can discuss them or whatnot. If anyone has ideas or suggestions, feel free to post them here. TDM version requirement: I've only tested it with TDM 2.11. I'm not sure but I dimly remember FMs used to be stored differently at some point in the past? If so, it wouldn't work with those older versions. I assume people would normally keep their TDM install up to date, but just a heads up. How it works: In the Settings window -> Paths tab, choose your Dark Mod executable. Click OK. Now your TDM FMs will be detected, scanned, and added to the list. For the other supported games, there is the concept of "installed" vs "not installed", this is because they normally come in archive files and then the loader can "install" them (extract the file into the "installed FMs" folder). For TDM there is no such concept (FMs are always installed), so the green checkmark "installed" indicator means that that FM is the currently selected one (the one that is loaded up when you start TDM), and only one TDM FM can be "selected" at a time. This indicator is kept in sync with the game, so if you change your selected FM inside TDM, AngelLoader will update its "selected" indicator in-app. Notes & Issues: Deleting FMs: Deleting TDM FMs is not supported yet. I notice TDM itself doesn't allow you to delete FMs either; it has been noted that people have accidentally lost their data and so the option was removed. AngelLoader puts files into the recycle bin when it deletes them, and I could add the option, but figured it was okay to leave it out initially since the game doesn't let you do it either. Note, though, that you can still delete TDM FMs from AngelLoader's database if you've manually deleted the actual FM from disk first. To do this, first click the "Show only unavailable FMs" button (red X page icon on the top bar). Last Played and Finished-On-Difficulty: Finished-on difficulty is now autodetected. Last played date is taken from the game's database only if AngelLoader doesn't have one in its own (its own is more granular). In the FMs folder, there is a file missions.tdminfo which stores certain pieces of data about FMs. Included among this data is which difficulty the mission has been finished on, and the last played date (down to the day only). AngelLoader also stores this information, but it doesn't get these values from this file at the moment. Instead, the last played date (down to the instant, not just the day) is set whenever an FM is started, and the finished-on state must be set manually. I could have it watch the file for changes and update the finished-on-difficulty automatically for the current FM. This would override the user setting, but in theory should be accurate anyway. I could also auto-update the last played date, but because it's only down to the day, that would be less optimal than just setting it on FM start, which would give a more granular date and would have sorting working better. So if you played two FMs in one day, the latest played one would sort at the top. Mods tab is disabled: For NewDark games, there is built-in support for mods, and they can be enabled or disabled per-FM in an official capacity. I've disabled the Mods tab for TDM because - from a cursory look anyway - I don't think there's such a per-FM method of mod management. Language selection is disabled: In the Edit FM tab, there's an option to choose which language to play an FM with. I've disabled it for TDM because there's a language option in-game (not the case with NewDark) and I haven't looked into how I would scan a TDM FM for supported languages anyway. "Play Without FM" Option: For the other games, there is the option (in the bottom bar) to play them with no FM. For TDM there is no such thing as "no FM", but the option is still there currently. It will simply start TDM without passing it anything, and whatever FM it has selected will be there. I might remove the option since it doesn't really make sense. This might make people wonder "where's the button for TDM" but on the other hand having it isn't really useful. Not sure. Mission downloading and updating: An in-app mission downloader is in progress. There is no mission downloader or anything like that currently. It simply lists what you've got on disk. This means that to get new FMs or check for updates to existing ones, you still have to go in-game. I don't know how people feel about the convenience factor of this, having to go in-game to get your FMs and then back out to AngelLoader. However, duplicating the TDM download functionality would mean it might well break if TDM ever changes anything about its downloader. Custom resource stats: In the Statistics tab, custom resource display is disabled for TDM. I haven't looked into what sort of "custom" things a TDM FM can have and how I can detect them. I may do this in the future.

Terrific! The beta test thread is up: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22238-beta-testing-the-spider-and-the-finch/

one thing that might avoid the problems with setting up a new account every time would be making an image of the OS when installed and configured (can use something ike norton ghost or similar for this) also avoids you having to setup everything anew when things go bad and you have to reinstall. As for cracking the password it could be several hours since microsoft updated the security on that part of the system. if it takes more then it would probably be a lot faster to just bite the apple and reinstall. setting up a new user account would also entail some problems unless you remembered to install for all users your programs would only be accessible to the main account so yeah you would need to reinstall everything besides windows. things have indeed become complicated in later years mostly due to security concerns ugh... resetting your microsoft account password should also reset the password used to log in to your PC if you use an ms account, it should ask you to update it on the next reboot. and no problem allways wise to ask questions if in doubt.

Thanks for all the feedback. My original post was the short version of a long story. So, just to clarify, I always create my account details separately in my password file first and only then copy it into the real log in. My password file is on a flash drive with a back up of the entire drive in a separate room in case of fire or theft. But in this case I couldn't access my main password file on the pc because, of course, it wasn't set up yet So I plugged it in my laptop. Guess what? The laptop doesn't like that drive for some reason. So I plugged in the backup drive and created my details there then copied them into the Win11 setup. Once setup there's a million things to configure how I want Windows and I'm still working on that two weeks later. At some point during this period I became aware my password backup drive was still at hand so I stupidly thought I might as well do a backup before I put it away in the other room! I backedup the main password file over the backup file (which had the only copy of my new Win11 details!) I can't believe I did that because I'm paranoid and really meticulous about organising and backing up account details. Just shows no matter how careful one tries to be one can still make a mistake. Next thing is I've always had problems with Microsoft Accounts. I've set up four or five over the years because every one gives wierd errors without explaining what the problem was. I once had a long session direct with M$oft where I gave them so many personal details to sort it all out and yet they still couldn't fix it! So here I set up yet another new one. So I'm reluctant to reset the password in Win11 in case it conflicts with the same password in the Microsoft Account. (Does that matter?) Or I could reset the password in the M$ account log in and then reset the password in Win11 using the same password. Would that work? As far as that hack, how long is 'ages' to crack it? Hours? Also, what would happen if I create a new user in Win11. I'd probably have to re-install software that is not public user I guess. But would I still be able to set admin privileges where needed? Not sure I'd gain anything. It would still conflict with the Microsoft Account. I can't get my head round all this crap; drives me nuts. Or I could do nothing until there is a problem. Odds are with my luck a pc only lasts two or three years. My previous one won't boot but might be recoverable if I can create a portable Win11 disk and fix the boot sector thing. Life is so bloody complicated. 200 years ago, the only tool I'd have to worry about is my spade which would last a lifetime of labouring on a farm 14 hours a day.

Finally, a FM I can stretch my legs in! I *adored* the wide open spaces, both under and on top of and inside the bridge. As others have said, it had that perfect classic Thief feeling that narrower and denser maps tend to lose, and I genuinely appreciate it for that. The spaces looked and felt no less real, no less lived-in, for it! And the SHAPES!! The platforms, staircases, uneven bridge floor, inner courtyards, ohhh mueh! The playable level *geometry* was such a treat for me. I didn't personally have any problems with framerates or other issues, thankfully. Overall, a 10/10 experience, short to play but massive in impression

I think that a good way is to sort it by download order, the most recent missions are not always downloaded first, that the new added missions are on the top of the list. I sometimes, after downloading/updating a Mission, it is somewhat annoying to scroll through the Missions list to find it. Adding these as the first in the list is maybe a better solution than by release date. This also avoids having to use unnecessary sorting algorithms.

I confess that with some missions I have had quite a few problems, with puzzles that were not very clear in the readables (also due to very small letters or handwritings, with my old eyes i sometimes leave traces of my nose in the screen), as happens for sure to others also whose native language is not English. It will be much harder for those to finish it. But I don't think this mission falls into this category, where the main challenges are a good level of stealth and not so much the puzzles.

Welcome to the Dark Mod forums MarsManon! Thank you very much for the kind words about SLL, it's always nice to hear We all worked real hard on bringing Grayman's map to life and I'm glad you enjoyed it

I was so enchanted by this FM, I had to sign up to the forums the same day I finished it to come thank the authors Genuinely, truly incredible work! I was so overwhelmed in places that I resorted to just shouting joy at my monitor two, three, maybe four entirely separate times while playing. Exploring, puzzling, finding something new, trying to use it, and finding it does a whole new, separate, wonderful thing! There aren't enough words inside me to describe the feeling. It was breathtaking. I don't have any specific feedback that hasn't come through this thread before Thanks so much for making this, for all the inspiration and ingenuity and effort it took. If I never play another level this good, in any other game, in my life, I'd be fine with that.

"The Threepenny Revue" https://www.thedarkmod.com/missiondetails/?internalName=threepenny "I've been in the business of other peoples' valuables for as long as I can remember, so I'm no stranger to breaking and entering. But until today, I've never done a robbery on commission. I guess there's a first time for everything..." Randal Cartier, a local theater owner, thinks himself above paying protection money to the local gangs. You've been hired to prove him wrong. "The Threepenny Revue" is a first attempt at a Dark Mod Fan Mission. After playing TDM for ages and loving it, I wanted to try my hand at creating one of my own. As such, this is a short, simple, and relatively straightforward mission made to learn the ropes. The experience was very enjoyable, and I'm planning to work on another one in the future. In the meantime, I hope you enjoy this one. It's available now in the mission list, but in the event anybody wants or needs a backup source I'm hosting the files on my own site here. Special thanks to @Cambridge Spy, @thebigh, @Shadow, @wesp5, and @boissiere for Beta Testing and giving feedback, which helped enormously in ironing out problems in DarkRadiant

Just downloaded it without problems...

There's a group of players who have meticulously tested and adjusted ghosting rules for The Dark Mod. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Why alienate an established group of dedicated players?

I don't think this would fix the problems of the current tutorial. Which for me is that it is just too boring and random, especially because you can select what section to do in what order! I can imagine player trying one or two and then abandoning the rest while missing information. Maybe we could add more tutorial-like situations and infos to the official campaign missions instead?

Congratulations on the release. Downloading now. :D

I think not. The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle. The old scheme is bad because frob is by default on mouse, and use is by default on keyboard, so doing click + keypress + click feels awful. As for discoverability, only the proper tutorial mission can really solve all the problems. You have something like 4 pending changes right now. Perhaps you commit the other three (which are less radical) to trunk, then I'll make a dev build of it, and then I'll apply your patch and create a test build (also in tdm_installer) with frob changes? Then I can do the same with double-clicking prototype.

Finally got around to playing this, and I'm happy to see new fan missions on the download list. Exploring the map was very enjoyable, and I liked the verticality... also the opportunity to "cheat" and get around with rope arrows made me glad I invested in them at mission start. The sense of scale in the map, particularly crawling around scaffolding under the bridge, was cool and I enjoyed the view of the city in the fog. That said, I mirror some of the comments here that even with a pretty beefy graphics card I had the whole game freeze for almost half a minute whenever I faced out into the skybox view while standing on top of the ground floor outhouse (just in front of the sitting guard outside, by the door). I never had any of the bridge problems others have reported, so I guess that might be a sporadic issue. At any rate, a fun map. Very enjoyable!

The "external argument about exact duration" is not removed with double click. There is a setting in OS preferences for setting double-click speed, is there not? The challenge of setting the exact duration is the same for both long-press and double-click frob. Therefore, the confusion is not removed with double click. I tuned the long-press frob to be somewhere between "unintentional long-press frob" and "it being too sluggish." Early player feedback guided the current default value of 200ms -- it was originally 300ms. During more play testing, if players are having trouble, the default can be increased and tested. We need to follow the data from actual play testing. The player can adjust the tdm_frobhold_delay cvar to their liking as well. It's more likely that a player will hold frob while moving an item, because for most items, nothing different or bad happens. It's less likely that a player will unintentionally double-click frob an item during pick up, because they know that would cause them to drop it. Therefore, players are more likely to discover long-press frob to extinguish than double-click frob to extinguish, which is a good thing. We want the player to discover it (if they didn't read the manual or play the tutorial mission). Also, long-press frob is used in other games, such as Fallout 4. Getting double-click frob to extinguish to work well along with drop item would be troublesome, because there would always be a double-click delay before a single-click drop initiates. Long-press frob does not have a drop issue, because the player can long-press frob until they see the candle extinguish or quick-press frob to instantly drop it. To be clear, long-press frob also "does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for" a longer frob press. This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob. For longtime players who are not satisfied with this new control scheme, "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" restores TDM 2.11 behavior. After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.