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Hi, this mission is crashing on my system and I cannot go on. Playing "Hidden Hands - The lost citadel" Version 6 on Fedora Linux Version 38. I paste the whole output of the console below. Perhaps someone can find the cause for the crash, that would be very nice [stefan@fedora darkmod]$ ./thedarkmod.x64 TDM 2.11/64 #10264 (1435:10264) linux-x86_64 Jan 30 2023 02:02:43 /proc/cpuinfo CPU frequency: 899.998 MHz 900 MHz Intel CPU with SSE & SSE2 & SSE3 & SSSE3 & SSE41 & AVX found interface lo - loopback Found Intel CPU, features: SSE SSE2 SSE3 SSSE3 SSE41 AVX TDM using AVX for SIMD processing. Found 0 new missions and 0 packages. ------ Initializing File System ------ Current search path: [M] /home/stefan/darkmod/fms/hhtlc [M] /home/stefan/darkmod/fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4 (665 files - 0xf04d8d7e) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/ [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_wood01.pk4 (382 files - 0x54c704d0) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_window01.pk4 (399 files - 0x50a48869) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_stone_sculpted01.pk4 (464 files - 0x3bd63c7c) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_stone_natural01.pk4 (141 files - 0x4d0836ff) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_stone_flat01.pk4 (302 files - 0x671a22d2) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_stone_cobblestones01.pk4 (271 files - 0xc46ab14f) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_stone_brick01.pk4 (527 files - 0x1d087cf8) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_sfx01.pk4 (69 files - 0x2c673886) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_roof01.pk4 (69 files - 0x24547b7) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_plaster01.pk4 (142 files - 0x9747529e) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_paint_paper01.pk4 (67 files - 0xa4a95a09) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_other01.pk4 (127 files - 0x36932451) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_nature01.pk4 (286 files - 0x19240606) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_metal01.pk4 (509 files - 0x441d098f) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_glass01.pk4 (51 files - 0x3f3721e) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_fabric01.pk4 (43 files - 0x649daf73) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_door01.pk4 (177 files - 0xb0130166) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_decals01.pk4 (474 files - 0xe2ff12c6) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_carpet01.pk4 (130 files - 0x79bc3d7c) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_textures_base01.pk4 (435 files - 0xc07a324) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_standalone.pk4 (4 files - 0xb3f36d20) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals_decls01.pk4 (32 files - 0x53cda0aa) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals07.pk4 (1111 files - 0xa13ec4c2) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals06.pk4 (696 files - 0x44c85e78) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals05.pk4 (119 files - 0x6cf23214) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals04.pk4 (2869 files - 0xd7ec1256) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals03.pk4 (743 files - 0xb3f2e0f1) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals02.pk4 (1299 files - 0x5092940e) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_vocals01.pk4 (82 files - 0xf4d326b2) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4 (605 files - 0x31673482) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_sfx01.pk4 (987 files - 0x97451b7a) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_ambient_decls01.pk4 (8 files - 0x9404877c) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_ambient03.pk4 (24 files - 0xd28ca9ec) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_ambient02.pk4 (163 files - 0x84efad22) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_sound_ambient01.pk4 (220 files - 0xee228c81) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_prefabs01.pk4 (1017 files - 0x506baa0b) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_player01.pk4 (127 files - 0xd983fc45) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_models_decls01.pk4 (101 files - 0x146c787) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_models02.pk4 (2241 files - 0x42cdbf62) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_models01.pk4 (3326 files - 0x829270f2) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_gui_credits01.pk4 (49 files - 0xbff51863) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_gui01.pk4 (758 files - 0xcbf4fd2d) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_fonts01.pk4 (696 files - 0x7c5027bf) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_env01.pk4 (176 files - 0x8bd4045b) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_defs01.pk4 (194 files - 0xe5f440dc) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_base01.pk4 (223 files - 0x9704b43c) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_steambots01.pk4 (31 files - 0x26416485) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_monsters_spiders01.pk4 (80 files - 0x15c3ef89) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_undead01.pk4 (55 files - 0x25e463ad) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_townsfolk01.pk4 (104 files - 0xa6f7c573) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_pagans01.pk4 (10 files - 0x566fb35a) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_nobles01.pk4 (51 files - 0x5ca54cab) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_mages01.pk4 (8 files - 0x5e7a666b) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_heads01.pk4 (100 files - 0x45ec787e) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_guards01.pk4 (379 files - 0x9801be8d) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_females01.pk4 (172 files - 0xc7de4598) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_builders01.pk4 (91 files - 0x6dea9b57) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_beasts02.pk4 (229 files - 0x886c9a98) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_humanoid_beasts01.pk4 (23 files - 0xba9da54c) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_base01.pk4 (9 files - 0x1de319e8) [C] /home/stefan/darkmod/tdm_ai_animals01.pk4 (82 files - 0x6c0fda50) File System Initialized. -------------------------------------- Couldn't open journal files /proc/cpuinfo CPU processors: 2 /proc/cpuinfo CPU logical cores: 4 ----- Initializing Decls ----- WARNING:file materials/puzzle_paintings.mtr, line 228: material 'textures/puzzle/flower' previously defined at materials/puzzle_paintings.mtr:14 WARNING:file sound/ambient.sndshd, line 79: sound 'firstfloor' previously defined at sound/ambient.sndshd:51 WARNING:file sound/soul.sndshd, line 129: sound 'builder_tim_1' previously defined at sound/soul.sndshd:102 WARNING:file sound/video.sndshd, line 12: sound 'main' previously defined at sound/ambient.sndshd:1 ------------------------------ I18N: SetLanguage: 'english'. I18N: Found no character remapping for english. I18N: 1321 strings read from strings/english.lang I18N: 'strings/fm/english.lang' not found. Couldn't exec editor.cfg - file does not exist. execing default.cfg Gamepad modifier button assigned to 6 execing Darkmod.cfg execing DarkmodKeybinds.cfg execing DarkmodPadbinds.cfg Gamepad modifier button assigned to 6 Couldn't exec autoexec.cfg - file does not exist. I18N: SetLanguage: 'german'. I18N: Found no character remapping for german. I18N: 1321 strings read from strings/german.lang I18N: 'strings/fm/german.lang' not found. I18NLocal: 'strings/fm/english.lang' not found, skipping it. ----- Initializing OpenAL ----- Setup OpenAL device and context OpenAL: found device 'ALSA Default' [ACTIVE] OpenAL: found device 'HDA Intel PCH, CS4208 Analog (CARD=PCH,DEV=0)' OpenAL: found device 'HDA Intel PCH, HDMI 0 (CARD=PCH,DEV=3)' OpenAL: found device 'HDA Intel PCH, HDMI 1 (CARD=PCH,DEV=7)' OpenAL: found device 'HDA Intel PCH, HDMI 2 (CARD=PCH,DEV=8)' OpenAL: device 'ALSA Default' opened successfully OpenAL: HRTF is available [ALSOFT] (EE) Failed to set real-time priority for thread: Operation not permitted (1) OpenAL vendor: OpenAL Community OpenAL renderer: OpenAL Soft OpenAL version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.21.1 OpenAL: found EFX extension OpenAL: HRTF is disabled (reason: 0 = ALC_HRTF_DISABLED_SOFT) OpenAL: found 256 hardware voices ----- Initializing OpenGL ----- Initializing OpenGL display ...initializing QGL ------- Input Initialization ------- ------------------------------------ OpenGL vendor: Intel OpenGL renderer: Mesa Intel(R) HD Graphics 615 (KBL GT2) OpenGL version: 4.6 (Core Profile) Mesa 23.1.9 core Checking required OpenGL features... v - using GL_VERSION_3_3 v - using GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc Checking optional OpenGL extensions... v - using GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic maxTextureAnisotropy: 16.000000 v - using GL_ARB_stencil_texturing X - GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test not found v - using GL_ARB_buffer_storage v - using GL_ARB_texture_storage v - using GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect v - using GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding X - GL_ARB_compatibility not found v - using GL_KHR_debug Max active texture units in fragment shader: 32 Max combined texture units: 192 Max anti-aliasing samples: 16 Max geometry output vertices: 256 Max geometry output components: 1024 Max vertex attribs: 16 ---------- R_ReloadGLSLPrograms_f ----------- Linking GLSL program cubeMap ... Linking GLSL program bumpyEnvironment ... Linking GLSL program depthAlpha ... Linking GLSL program fog ... Linking GLSL program oldStage ... Linking GLSL program blend ... Linking GLSL program stencilshadow ... Linking GLSL program shadowMapA ... Linking GLSL program ambientInteraction ... Linking GLSL program interactionStencil ... Linking GLSL program interactionShadowMaps ... Linking GLSL program interactionMultiLight ... Linking GLSL program frob ... Linking GLSL program soft_particle ... Linking GLSL program tonemap ... Linking GLSL program gaussian_blur ... Linking GLSL program testImageCube ... --------------------------------- Font fonts/english/stone in size 12 not found, using size 24 instead. --------- Initializing Game ---------- The Dark Mod 2.11/64, linux-x86_64, code revision 10264 Build date: Jan 30 2023 Initializing event system ...873 event definitions Initializing class hierarchy ...172 classes, 1732032 bytes for event callbacks Initializing scripts ---------- Compile stats ---------- Memory usage: Strings: 56, 9048 bytes Statements: 23155, 926200 bytes Functions: 1358, 177432 bytes Variables: 107720 bytes Mem used: 2149432 bytes Static data: 408 bytes Allocated: 1152120 bytes Thread size: 7928 bytes Maximum object size: 816 Largest object type name: speaker_zone_ambient ...6 aas types game initialized. -------------------------------------- Parsing material files Found 0 new missions and 0 packages. Found 42 mods in the FM folder. Parsed 46 mission declarations. No 'tdm_mapsequence.txt' file found for the current mod: hhtlc -------- Initializing Session -------- session initialized -------------------------------------- Font fonts/english/mason_glow in size 12 not found, using size 48 instead. Font fonts/english/mason_glow in size 24 not found, using size 48 instead. Font fonts/english/mason in size 12 not found, using size 48 instead. Font fonts/english/mason in size 24 not found, using size 48 instead. WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'QuitGameDialogAskEverytimeOption' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'ColorPrecision' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'OpenDoorsOnUnlock' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'InvPickupMessages' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'HideLightgem' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'BowAimer' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'FrobHelper' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'showTooltips' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertAttack' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertParry' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'SCGeneralBind5' has value count unequal to choices count --- Common Initialization Complete --- ------------- Warnings --------------- during The Dark Mod initialization... WARNING:file materials/puzzle_paintings.mtr, line 228: material 'textures/puzzle/flower' previously defined at materials/puzzle_paintings.mtr:14 WARNING:file sound/ambient.sndshd, line 79: sound 'firstfloor' previously defined at sound/ambient.sndshd:51 WARNING:file sound/soul.sndshd, line 129: sound 'builder_tim_1' previously defined at sound/soul.sndshd:102 WARNING:file sound/video.sndshd, line 12: sound 'main' previously defined at sound/ambient.sndshd:1 WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'BowAimer' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'ColorPrecision' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'FrobHelper' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'HideLightgem' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'InvPickupMessages' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertAttack' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertParry' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'OpenDoorsOnUnlock' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'QuitGameDialogAskEverytimeOption' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'SCGeneralBind5' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'showTooltips' has value count unequal to choices count 15 warnings WARNING: terminal type 'xterm-256color' is unknown. terminal support may not work correctly terminal support enabled ( use +set in_tty 0 to disabled ) pid: 4247 Async thread started Couldn't exec autocommands.cfg - file does not exist. Found 0 new missions and 0 packages. Found 42 mods in the FM folder. reloading guis/msg.gui. WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'QuitGameDialogAskEverytimeOption' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'ColorPrecision' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'OpenDoorsOnUnlock' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'InvPickupMessages' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'HideLightgem' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'BowAimer' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'FrobHelper' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'showTooltips' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertAttack' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'MeleeInvertParry' has value count unequal to choices count WARNING:idChoiceWindow:: gui 'guis/mainmenu.gui' window 'SCGeneralBind5' has value count unequal to choices count reloading guis/mainmenu.gui. WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:48 WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:53 WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:58 WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:63 WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:68 WARNING:unknown destination 'FlareBox::rect' of set command at /fms/hhtlc/hhtlc_1b4187d3b30d65cf.pk4/guis/map/hhtlc.gui:73 --------- Map Initialization --------- Map: hhtlc ------- Game Map Init SaveGame ------- ---------- Compile stats ---------- Memory usage: Strings: 57, 9144 bytes Statements: 23506, 940240 bytes Functions: 1379, 179716 bytes Variables: 108332 bytes Mem used: 2188540 bytes Static data: 408 bytes Allocated: 1176676 bytes Thread size: 7928 bytes collision data: 1373 models 163204 vertices (5100 KB) 273893 edges (12838 KB) 110189 polygons (8170 KB) 15680 brushes (2322 KB) 138243 nodes (6480 KB) 243924 polygon refs (3811 KB) 58507 brush refs (914 KB) 85771 internal edges 9795 sharp edges 0 contained polygons removed 0 polygons merged 39637 KB total memory used 2123 msec to load collision data. map bounds are (22831.0, 23151.4, 9093.0) 79 KB passage memory used to build PVS 52 msec to calculate PVS 252 areas 598 portals 14 areas visible on average 7 KB PVS data [Load AAS] missing maps/hhtlc.aas48 [Load AAS] loading maps/hhtlc.aas96 done. [Load AAS] loading maps/hhtlc.aas32 done. [Load AAS] missing maps/hhtlc.aas100 [Load AAS] loading maps/hhtlc.aas_rat done. [Load AAS] loading maps/hhtlc.aas_elemental done. WARNING:Couldn't load gui: 'guis/map_of.gui' WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer2.lwo' contains different model WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer3.lwo' contains different model WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer4.lwo' contains different model WARNING:Couldn't load sound 'explosion_all_clear.wav' using default [map entity: atdm_trigger_voice_12] [decl: explosion_all_clear in <implicit file>] [sound: explosion_all_clear.wav] No running thread for RestoreScriptObject(), creating new one. -------------------------------------- ----- idRenderModelManagerLocal::EndLevelLoad ----- 0 models purged from previous level, 2786 models kept. --------------------------------------------------- ----- idImageManager::EndLevelLoad ----- WARNING:Couldn't load image: lights/qc_comj [map entity: light_159] [decl: lights/qc_comj in <implicit file>] [image: lights/qc_comj] WARNING:Couldn't load image: guis/assets/game_maps/map_of_icon [map entity: MapMansion1] [decl: atdm:map_of in def/tdm_shopitems.def] [decl: guis/assets/game_maps/map_of_icon in <implicit file>] [image: guis/assets/game_maps/map_of_icon] 0 purged from previous 219 kept from previous 2070 new loaded all images loaded in 41.8 seconds ---------------------------------------- Linking GLSL program cubeMap ... Linking GLSL program bumpyEnvironment ... Linking GLSL program depthAlpha ... Linking GLSL program fog ... Linking GLSL program oldStage ... Linking GLSL program blend ... Linking GLSL program stencilshadow ... Linking GLSL program shadowMapA ... Linking GLSL program ambientInteraction ... Linking GLSL program interactionStencil ... Linking GLSL program interactionShadowMaps ... Linking GLSL program interactionMultiLight ... Linking GLSL program frob ... Linking GLSL program soft_particle ... Linking GLSL program tonemap ... Linking GLSL program gaussian_blur ... Linking GLSL program testImageCube ... Linking GLSL program depth ... Linking GLSL program interaction_ambient ... Linking GLSL program interaction_stencil ... Linking GLSL program interaction_shadowmap ... Linking GLSL program stencil_shadow ... Linking GLSL program shadow_map ... Linking GLSL program frob_silhouette ... Linking GLSL program frob_highlight ... Linking GLSL program frob_extrude ... Linking GLSL program frob_apply ... Linking GLSL program heatHazeWithDepth ... Linking GLSL program HeatHazeWithMaskAndDepth ... Linking GLSL program heatHaze ... Linking GLSL program heatHazeWithMaskAndBlur ... Linking GLSL program fresnel ... Linking GLSL program ambientEnvironment ... Linking GLSL program heatHazeWithMaskAndDepth ... ---------------------------------------- ----- idSoundCache::EndLevelLoad ----- 394497k referenced 125k purged ---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- 77079 msec to load hhtlc Interaction table generated: size = 0/512 Initial counts: 6903 entities 665 lightDefs 5265 entityDefs ------------- Warnings --------------- during hhtlc... WARNING:Couldn't load gui: 'guis/map_of.gui' WARNING:Couldn't load image: guis/assets/game_maps/map_of_icon WARNING:Couldn't load image: lights/qc_comj WARNING:Couldn't load sound 'explosion_all_clear.wav' using default WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer2.lwo' contains different model WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer3.lwo' contains different model WARNING:idCollisionModelManagerLocal::LoadModel: collision file for 'models/ritual_hammer4.lwo' contains different model 7 warnings Interaction table generated: size = 0/512 Initial counts: 6903 entities 665 lightDefs 5265 entityDefs WARNING:Restarted sound to avoid offset overflow: sound/ambient/environmental/water_pool02.ogg WARNING:Restarted sound to avoid offset overflow: sound/ambient/ambience/silence.ogg WARNING:Restarted sound to avoid offset overflow: sound/ambient/ambience/alien05.ogg Linking GLSL program environment ... The ambient volume is now -1.885291 decibels (range: -60..0), i.e., 87.749992% of full volume. Restarting ambient sound snd_ct_babtistery'(derelict03) with volume -1.885291 signal caught: Segmentation fault si_code 128 Trying to exit gracefully.. ----- idRenderModelManagerLocal::EndLevelLoad ----- 0 models purged from previous level, 2786 models kept. --------------------------------------------------- Regenerated world, staticAllocCount = 0. Getting threadname failed, reason: No such file or directory (2) --------- Game Map Shutdown ---------- ModelGenerator memory: 67 LOD entries with 0 users using 1072 bytes. --------- Game Map Shutdown done ----- Shutting down sound hardware idRenderSystem::Shutdown() ...shutting down QGL I18NLocal: Shutdown. ------------ Game Shutdown ----------- ModelGenerator memory: No LOD entries. Shutdown event system -------------------------------------- Sys_Error: ERROR: pthread_join Frontend failed shutdown terminal support About to exit with code 1

I would like to make sure we are on track to solve the issues at hand. Is there agreement that new players struggle and often quit playing TDM due to its current control scheme? Note the player complaints on the first page. Is there agreement on this proposal's main objective? Make TDM's "frob" and "use" interactions simpler for new players while also improving it for longtime players. I should point out that "improving it for longtime players" does not mean that every single longtime player will get a new control scheme that they are satisfied with. They might have to continue to use the "TDM 2.11" control scheme or learn the new one, even though they don't entirely agree with it. Again, the main objective is to "make TDM's frob and use interactions simpler for new players." Is there agreement that the following issues need to be solved? How can the control scheme be made less cumbersome? How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them? How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up? How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking (currently in TDM 2.11) be eliminated? @stgatilov Are you in agreement with this proposal's main objectives? Even if you disagree with long-press frob, is it ok to include long-press frob in 2.12 dev if players want it?

The fewer words you need to explain your mechanic the better it is designed: For static objects press "frob" to interact with them. For moveables press "frob" to grab them and "use" to interact with them. TDM follows these simple rules nicely. @Daft Mugi I welcome this initiative and I encourage you to carry on experimenting. Here are my thoughts: Interacting with moveable lights: currently to extinguish a candle I must "frob" it and "use" it. If I extinguish a candle unintentionally it is my fault (I pressed the wrong button). With your design, is it my fault if I frobbed a candle 201 milliseconds and extinguished it unintentionally? Long-pressing buttons in TDM is faulty because there isn't any visual timer / bar / whatever. Dragging vs shouldering a body: interacting with the limbs of a body is the more challenging of the two mechanics. Do we really want to promote the easiest of the two and make the challenging mechanic more difficult? Besides, with your design I unintentionally drop bodies often while I intend to interact with doors, is it my fault? In my opinion the short term solution is a very long frob (0,5 secs or longer) to extinguish a candle and/or shoulder a body. Leave the original mechanic intact but have the new functionality somewhere in there for those who want them. The long term solution is something else: what would you do if you were to build these mechanics from scratch? Think big. PS1: Developers should never point players to anything that isn't available in the in-game settings. cvars should be there for 1) debugging 2) testing 3) very special cases, mainly accessibility / usability. PS2: "This is how Thief does it" sounds like a lame excuse. Thief is dead, TDM is alive!

Welcome to the forums Ansome! And congrats on making it to beta phase!

I coded this up tonight to try out the idea. I think you're right. It does feel better and more consistent. Candle/Lantern (in world, not picked up) Quick-press frob to pick up. Long-press frob to extinguish (or toggle on/off). Candle/Lantern (in hands, already picked up) Quick-press frob to drop. Long-press frob to extinguish (or toggle on/off). I'll do a bit more testing tomorrow, and if all goes well, I'll update the patch.

@Daft Mugi I tested it out. I think it's fine to merge this change but I feel that there is one issue here. It establishes the protocol of frob to extinguish but once you are holding an object you may wish to extinguish the held object and your muscle memory will tell you to hold frob again which will instantly drop the item instead. I am not sure but perhaps only a quick frob should drop the held item whereas a long frob should also act like use on the held item?

@AluminumHaste I've updated the patch (same link as before): https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794 Added "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar: "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior", default:"1" Which drag body behavior? 1 --- on frob key up, drop body (limb). 0 --- on second frob, drop body (limb), TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Added drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. (Not thoroughly tested, but it seems to be working as intended.) Could you please update the build?

I admit that I was skeptical myself at first, but once I tried it in game, I changed my mind. So, I recommend applying the patch to a local build and give it a go in game. It's definitely better experienced than thought about. Regarding the candle puzzle in "Seeking Lady Leicester" (SLL), I agree that this proposed change will make that a bit more difficult, but I disagree on the reason why. The released version of SLL has a flint in the inventory to ignite them, so accidentally extinguishing candles shouldn't be much of a problem. Instead, I think the reason for player frustration would be that the unlit candles highlight, showing they can be frobbed, but when the player does frob, nothing would happen. They might not realize the candles can be picked up with a long-press frob. @Wellingtoncrab and I had a discussion about that exact puzzle during the design of this feature. So, what convinced me that it wasn't really a problem? I tried it in game. Players will learn how unlit candles look and behave when frobbed. Like @ChronA said above: "When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out." I decided it was better to optimize for what players expect most often and do most often rather than optimize for rare cases. Players already rage in frustration that they have trouble extinguishing candles or don't realize that they can. Another quote from a player on Discord: "I'd even say the "some players didn't know you could extinguish candles by using them" thing is "almost any new player and a lot of old ones too", since I once had an extended conversation about exactly how immersion breaking and weird it was to have to extinguish candles by dropping them, and literally not a single person brought up the fact that [extinguish candles by using them] was possible." During beta testing, the struggle that some beta testers had with the candle puzzle was not knowing about object manipulation. They didn't know about the "Parry/Manipulate" keybinding, or they forgot about object manipulation because they did the training mission roughly 5 years ago and had not needed to do it in a mission afterwards. So, "long-press frob to pick up" is in the same class of player interaction as object manipulation. In other words, the same problem already exists in TDM v2.11. I couldn't find the original screenshot from one of the SLL beta testers, but here's one similar, showing that the player didn't know about object manipulation: If this is truly in a released mission, I'd like to know about it. We can problem solve for that case if it does in fact exist. I don't think we should concern ourselves with something hypothetical, though. And, I disagree that we should make or keep controls cumbersome for the player in order to add challenge. I agree with @ChronA here. I don't think players are playing TDM for that type of challenge. The patch includes the following cvar: "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"300" The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or pick up. Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. When "tdm_frobhold_delay" is set to 0, candles and bodies have the same behavior as TDM v2.11. As of a few moments ago, bodies didn't quite have the same behavior. But based on your feedback, I updated the patch (linked above) to make bodies behave that way. Thank you for your feedback.

IMO it's one of these cases again, where you try to solve asset-level problem by making changes on the engine level. What I'm interested the most though: let's say I have custom candle assets / entities in my WIP that work like in Thief 3 (first frob extinguishes candles, second one picks them up). Will these changes break it?

Snuffing candles on frob was once a priority and now it isn't anymore. Where is the prototype for long-frob / hold-frob to shoulder and unshoulder bodies? We don't need expensive code workarounds and exceptions. We don't lose anything, we win a new feature. The debate is over.

Is this bound to frob or long-frob now? Because I remember the recent mission where you had to place burning candles on a table which would be rather difficult if frob would snuff them out. I don't know if it had a slow match or flint to help. But I completely agree about the cvars, if something isn't set in the options menu, I will never use a cvar to change it!

1. Instead of Hide Lightgem I would say Show Lightgem and default it to yes. 2. Currently the last changed setting stays highlighted. I would set it to only highlight when hovered. 3. Instead of having both Enabled/Disabled and Yes/No, maybe choose one and stick to that in the whole settings section? Hold-Frob Interact Short delay Open doors on unlock Disabled Auto-search bodies Enabled Pickup messages Enabled Higlight held objects Enabled Lightgem Enabled Bow: Attached aimer Disabled Blacjack helper Enabled Frob helper Fade in Head Bob 1 Mantle roll 1.0 Possibly make the setting text color red Disabled / green Enabled ? I think the term Mantle roll makes no sense. It's not like you're rolling while mantling.

List of major console variables and commands: PLAYER tdm_holdfrob_* --- set of variables that affect the reworked frob controls. tdm_autosearch_bodies --- automatically take items attached to unconscious bodies on frob. pm_headbob_mod, pm_lean_* --- allows to reduce some player movements. HELPER tdm_show_viewpos, screenshot_viewpos --- embedding viewpos into screenshot for better bug reports. tdm_open_doors, tdm_close_doors --- cheats to make mission testing faster. TROUBLESHOOTING r_useLightPortalFlow, r_useLightPortalFlowCulling --- improved light-entity interaction culling. Most major effect on shadows. This cvar is responsible for causing light leaks with stencil shadows, please report all of them! (thread) r_useNewRenderPasses --- selects from several renderer backend code paths. This is similar to the old r_useNewBackend cvar which has been deleted. r_shadowMapSinglePass --- faster code path for filling shadow maps. r_useEntityScissors, r_animationBounds --- improved bounds estimates for rendered entities. r_postprocess_dither --- new dithering in tonemap postprocessing for less color banding. r_shadowMapAlphaTested --- experimental mode for alpha-tested surfaces with shadow maps, where transparent areas of texture don't cast shadows. s_realTimeDecoding --- selects code path for decoding sound samples. tdm_subtitles_* --- many cvars for subtitle improvements (location cue, duration extension, debug text).

GAMEPLAY * Frob controls have been reworked completely. Previously players were annoyed by having to do three presses to extinguish a light. Also, some player didn't even know that bodies could be shouldered and were limited with dragging bodies. Now simply clicking the frob button performs the action player needs most of the time, and pressing-and-holding the same button performs alternative actions like dragging bodies and extinguishing candles (thread). * Several aspects of mantling has been improved: overhead mantling has become faster, mantling over low obstacles is allowed while carrying an item or a body. Also it is possible to switch weapon while being on rope/ladder or mantling. Pressing crouch button on rope/ladder now starts slide-down immediately. * Some aspects of gameplay can be further simplified. Auto-search bodies is for players who don't want to waste time searching for keys and purses on guard bodies. Lockpicking "Auto" difficulty now indeed trivializes lockpicking (thread). * Leaning animation has been improved with lower head tilt (thread). * Player footstep sounds have been rebalanced. Metal and water sounds were especially painful previously. * Further improvements of subtitles: revised location and font to avoid overlapping with other GUI elements, added directional cue, better slot allocation. Each subtitle is now displayed for at least one second even if the sound is very short. * More settings to reduce camera bobbing/rolling/shaking, which is good for players who feel motion sickness from default camera animations. * Now several script addons can coexist and work independently (thread). ENGINE * Optimized generation of light-entity interactions in rendering frontend. Also greatly optimized shadow processing, especially for moving lights. Unfortunately, many existing missions are not compatible with these changes, so you might see light leaking through walls (mainly with stencil shadows). Please report all such cases, we'll apply workaround on case by case basis (thread). * The "old" and "new" rendering backends are finally merged into one. It is as nice to program as the new backend, and as old-fashioned and reliable as the old backend. Single-pass shadow maps enabled by default and now respect noselfshadow. * Materials with polygonoffset now interact with lights. So static decals can have bumpmap and specular lighting. Note however: dynamic decals still don't interact with lights. * Revised parallelSky lights and marked shadowing parallel lights as deprecated (thread). * PNG image format now behaves equally to other supported formats. In particular, it is not required to explicitly specify its extension, and it can be referenced directly in GUI code. * Added functions min/max to material expressions, which can be useful for clamping. * Fixed minor culling bugs on animated entities and enabled entity scissors by default. * Reduced color banding for fog with some dithering at tonemapping stage. * Finally our C++ code can compress and decompress all texture formats we use, meaning that we no longer depend on occasionally buggy/slow vendor implementations. BUGS * Now both OGG and WAV sounds work the same way and stop playing while in main menu. * Fixed "gui::startSelect" as a feature that allows to choose player starting location in GUI briefing. * Fixed warnings in newspaper_bridgeport0X core readable GUI. ASSETS * Added automatic turrets, to be combined with security cameras (Thread). * Added more covered furniture models (6289). * Added wall models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6293). * New and fixed versions of atdm:lamp_electric_square_3_lit_unattached (6315). * Fixed UV map on Stove models (6312). * Fixed some issues with moor AI (6345).

Really nice mission! I finished in just under two hours with a total loot of about 6,000 and found all five secrets. Admittedly, one of them was a really lucky frob. Congratulations on the release. It's a really fun mission.

New script for mappers: my flavour of a fog density fading script. To add this to your FM, add the line "thread FogIntensityLoop();" to your map's void main() function (see the example in fogfade.script) and set "fog_fade" "1" on each foglight to enable script control of it. Set "fog_intensity_multiplier" on each info_location entity to change how thick the fog is in that location (practically speaking it's a multiplier for visibility distance). Lastly, "fog_fade_speed" on each foglight determines how quickly it will change its density. The speed scales with the current value of shaderParm3, using shaderParm3 = 1000 as a baseline. So i.e. if shaderParm is currently at 1/10th of 1000, then fade speed will be 1/10th as fast. Differences to Obsttorte's script: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/14394-apples-and-peaches-obsttortes-mapping-and-scripting-thread/&do=findComment&comment=310436 my script uses fog lights you created, rather than creating one for you. Obsttorte's script will delete the foglight if entering a fogfree zone and recreate it later more than one fog light can be controlled (however, no per-fog-light level of control) adding this to the map requires adding a line to your void main() script, rather than adding an info_locations_settings entity with a custom scriptobject spawnarg in my script, mappers set a multiplier of fog visibility distance (shaderParm3), while in Obsttorte's script a "fog_density" spawnarg is used as an alternative to shaderParm3 smaller and less compactly written script fogfade.scriptfogfade.map

Interesting. Probably user error then. Possibly I grabbed the loot through the chest while trying to open it? I can reload to an earlier slot from before entering the building and have another look - otherwise it's possible that I wasn't able to highlight it. Either way, if it's just loot that's less of a concern. I was more worried it was part of a puzzle I had missed. EDIT: Okay, with the stuff in the chest, I cannot frob the contents in my main savegame, it simply doesn't work. However, if I wind back to an earlier point from before I entered the building, it will work. Strange. I still can't find that key, though.

Regardless of what is used in the end, I think we should move auto-loot to that too for everything to be consistent. Right now auto-loot is long-frob, bodies and lights are double-frob and consumables are frob+use! Rather an unintuitive mess.

That has been said before but I don't understand it. Isn't this a simple "if short-frob then do x elif long-frob do y" situation?

The devs didn't title this thread, and @datiswous said they're attempting to mislead people by using Russell's name and a retro style to make it resemble Thief, which is cynical. I grew up on forums like I'm sure anyone who likes a game from '98 did. I actually left the Discord immediately after joining it because it was more off-topic doom-posting than anything relevant to the mod. I thought the forums might be better, but it's mostly just grown men yelling at clouds and telling strangers how mature they are, and a few brave souls actually developing anything. Depressing place, I'll just stick to enjoying new missions every 6 months without an account.

Kinda feels like I threw a live grenade into a dung pit by necroing this thread. Anyway, it seems like there is some agreement with my current work on both sides of the pit, as it will make the control scheme a bit more consistent, while leaving the general new control scheme intact. I have a working prototype that implements the following table. Contrary to the previous table, hold-type-grabber for loot and tools is not possible, as the long-press frob is already tied to multiloot (pickup multiple items successively without releasing the frob button). This extension is enabled via cvar, i.e., completely optional.

True, but, 1. this thread is called "Western stealth FPS with Stephen Russell", and, 2. nothing you said changes anything for me. The gameplay still doesn't look like something I'd enjoy. And, if you really think this forum is cynical, then you don't visit forums much. Actually, the majority of the users are are pretty mature, unlike in other forums.

I believe Snatcher already did this in detail. To me it really is about consistency. As far as I remember we wanted to include the long-frob for new players who don't know about shouldering/eating/whatever. For me it never was about the second I gain while shouldering because I actually don't shoulder that much. I knock out everybody so I rarely need to move bodies around. I shoulder most often to see if a body has a key and to get it when it is dropped on the other side, so short-frob to loot would be more important to me than quicker shouldering! So IMHO TDM should be consistent in itself to make new players learn the actions easier. Comparisons to other games don't help as new and old games use different methods.

Didn't play Deus Ex, Dishonored 1/2 or etc but, can you manipulate body limps in these games? And, don't you have to hold frob to shoulder bodies in dishonored games? Patiently waiting for a hold frob to shoulder / unshoulder bodies prototype. If anything, to prove how wrong some of us are.