Unopenable Doors

[7upMan]

Hi guys, regarding the door discussion, why not make two different sets of doors: the ones you can open have the usual door handle , while non-openable ones habe a round door knob. This way you can see from afar if you should bother to frob it. Just my two cents...

[Irenices]

Regarding dummy doors, what if someone made a special door handle that was the "new inventors guild door handle model 2.0" thats unpickable or something and you guys could just throw it on dummy doors so players would be able to see it and know its unpickable without ruining immersion with shitty textures?

 

or maybe a busted up broken handle for those poorer houses.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Irenices

[Fidcal]

One problem is that many FM makers won't do it so you won't know which doors are which anyway. There is only one way - try the door. If it doesn't highlight it isn't frobable. It's been this way for years and years with Thief and it won't change now. How can anyone force every FM-maker to do it one way or another - especially if they strongly disagree.

[kaldor]

Well,

 

there is another way of avoiding this: Don´t insert fake doors and build rooms behind them instead Okay, I know, that would be a damn lot of work. So, being not frobable is a valid way around.

 

It is a little late, but you could have inserted a special standard sound in TDM, that indicates a non-openable door. Like a very short "click" when you "frob" the door.

 

In the game "Prey", there is such a sound. If you hear that, you just walk away and try the next, because you definitely know, that there will be no key or mechanism that will open this door.

Edited November 4, 2009 by kaldor

[SneaksieDave]

It is a little late, but you could have inserted a special standard sound in TDM, that indicates a non-openable door. Like a very short "click" when you "frob" the door.

 

In the game "Prey", there is such a sound. If you hear that, you just walk away and try the next, because you definitely know, that there will be no key or mechanism that will open this door.

 

I like that. The player must still approach the door (can't tell from a distance) but they get a definitive indication. Also in the same vein (and already possible), a mapper could simply make a func_static doorknob which doesn't turn at all -- no sound, no movement = no open.

[Springheel]

The player must still approach the door (can't tell from a distance)

 

Why is that a good thing?

 

If the mapper must make some doors impassable for meta-game reasons, that's fine. But if I can't access a door for reasons outside the game, don't force me to deal with it inside the game.

 

When I see a door that has no handle, I can quickly and smoothly decide to ignore it. My sense of immersion is only jarred for a moment. If I actually work to GET to the door, only to find out it doesn't frob, my sense of immersion is snapped in half. I then have to construct a reason why, now that I'm here, the door won't open.

[SneaksieDave]

Discussed somewhere around here (maybe another thread): so the player is encouraged to explore and play the game (cross light areas etc) instead of just looking through a spyglass and knowing, "oh, I can't open that." So it's not dumbed-down, basically.

 

I think over there it came down to preference too, so what's to be said really. <shrug>

[Springheel]

But if the door is impassible, then you *can't* explore. Why get the player's hopes up?

 

I realize it's a personal preference; I guess I just don't get the appeal. To me it's like putting an invisible barrier in a passage, rather than a closed gate. The latter clearly tells the player the mission doesn't include an area beyond the gate. The former requires the player to actually get there. Do you also prefer the invisible barrier?

[Fidcal]

For me it's a non-issue and there is nothing anyone can do about it anyway. The player can do nothing about it. The mapper can only affect his own map in which he already knows which doors don't open. Any artifice to indicate a door does not open must forever be non-standard because most mappers around the world won't even know about this or even if they did then most won't conform to such a non-standard. Therefore players must ignore any artifice like a non-handle, a special handle, a no-entry sign of any kind. The only exception I can think of is to state in the readme to look out for the doors with special handles.

 

And what to do about doors that would look wrong with such a handle? Or no handle? I don't agree with compromising the art in this way. Such doors are architectural features - decoration. I see them as permanently unlockable doors like most doors you might pass in a city FM for instance. I'd be very disappointed to start looking for special marks on doors. Now that would be an immersion breaker for me.

[STiFU]

Don't mean to be offensive here, but the good thief explores every corner of a map anyway, because there might be some loot hidden, doesn't he? A special doorknob would be an acceptable compromise for me, but in general, I'd rather go for consistency in Design and gameplay. Like I said earlier:

If there are unpickable doors, for whom you need a key, there also gotta be unpickable doors, for whom there is no key. And making them unfrobable is already a big help for the player, because he knows at once, that he cannot directly interact with that door.

For that reason, I don't think the immersion would be broken by discovering a non-openable door, but it is broken per definition by conventions, declaring that certain things are communicated to the player ingame. I myself am not too picky about immersion actually, but you guys brought it up. I could very well life with the compromise...

[kaldor]

um.. why not starting a new discussion in the "The Dark Mod" category? We´re not talking about the mission anymore Can the admins of the forum copy those entries regarding the "non-openable" doors in this new thread? I think the discussion is worth it! Especially, because maybe others want to say something about it and won´t look in a FM-thread

Edited November 5, 2009 by kaldor

[kaldor]

[as long as there is no other thread, I will post here]

 

the good thief explores every corner of a map anyway, because there might be some loot hidden, doesn't he?

I completely agree! Thats part of the fun - but maybe there are other opinions.

 

I don't think the immersion would be broken by discovering a non-openable door, but it is broken per definition by conventions, declaring that certain things are communicated to the player ingame.

I think you contradict yourself here. A non-openable door always communicates to the player and always breaks the immersion. A thief with a lockpick should open any door, using keys is already breaking the immersion (but is a excellent thing for gameplay, tho).

 

The only difference a mapper can make about non-openable doors, is how much the immersion is broken. In my opinion, regarding doors (and not open pathways), it would bother me more when there would be a visual hint than a "touching" or "audio" signal. I can agree a door being not frobable, acting like it would be made of stone Even if that means, I got there for nothing.

Edited November 5, 2009 by kaldor

[SneaksieDave]

And what to do about doors that would look wrong with such a handle? Or no handle? I don't agree with compromising the art in this way. Such doors are architectural features - decoration. I see them as permanently unlockable doors like most doors you might pass in a city FM for instance. I'd be very disappointed to start looking for special marks on doors. Now that would be an immersion breaker for me.

That's pretty much my take on it. I don't like when ones that can't open are noticeable upon visual inspection from a distance; I lose some drive to even bother trying to get there, and it breaks immersion and simplifies the gameplay*. If instead, I approach a door that doesn't even highlight (or gives an indicative click), I can feel confident it won't be opening (I did this with the outside door in the stealth section of trainer), but I still took efforts to get there which I think in general is a good thing to encourage in this game.

 

Edit:* If I see a lone door way up on some obscure balcony that I know I cannot open, I might just figure the whole area is decoration. On the other hand, if there appears to be a usable door up there, I'm driven to try getting there.

[New Horizon]

I don't think it's necessary to change the way unusable doors have been identified all these years. It's just one of those things. It's simple, it works and it doesn't require any special work around. The FM makers will likely keep doing it that way anyway, as Fidcal pointed out.

[chumbucket91]

For me, it's just as much of an immersion breaker when I find a door that's a flat wall as it is when I find a door that I can't highlight and open. Considering that Thief and/or TDM manages to be the one of the most immersive games in gaming as we know it regardless of the odd unopenable door, claiming that either option is an "immersion breaker" is sort of making mountains out of anthills.

 

Also, using flat textures for T1/T2 was somewhat due to the limitations of the engine at that time - now that it's feasible to add a few more polygons to static decorations... well, there's one less reason to use the flat, non-normalmapped texture for a metalocked door.

[Baddcog]

For me as an author and player the main reason to have fake doors and windows is the same reason to have building facades. Maybe the player can't go there, but it makes it look like the world is bigger than it is.

 

If they weren't there then the maps would start to lean into that 'I'm trapped inside a box' feeling.

Why am I going from point a to b on this street full of buildings, but there are no doors or windows? Who lives in a city with no doors? How do they get out of their houses.

That called suspension of disbelief and it's very important to making a location feel alive.

 

Want to see a mission that breaks immersion, find the one with a 40 foot wall surrounding it with no doors/windows.

 

Why don't we get rid of dog sounds, you never see a dog. Suspension of disbelief. Why do we have busy pub sounds for a pub with no door?

 

The fact is no one will ever feel the same way and do the same thing while building a map. So it's not like we can force a facade standard.

 

With DarkMod textures can be used on everything. So you can use an object door or just a tex.

For an author tex is better because it looks the same, has normal maps and all but uses fewer entities. Using a door 'entity' for a non-usable door is bad because AI will try and use them in weird circumstances. At least using an object (not entity) solves that if an author has to plug a door model in there.

 

But adding an extra click/frob to tell a player you can't go there would just be more frustrating and confusing because players would always think there was a reason it highlights.

 

 

 

[SneaksieDave]

That is true; unless the click is very distinct, and everyone knows what it means, it will frustrate (and never will everyone know). So, I guess I favor the un-highlighted (though real texture and knob) fake door. Even if it opens later (via a switch) the player will know: "no frob highlight? I'm not getting this open by frobbing."

[Springheel]

Even if it opens later (via a switch) the player will know: "no frob highlight? I'm not getting this open by frobbing."

 

Well, that's the thing. How does the player know that the door isn't supposed to open some other way?

 

In Patently Dangerous,

there was that one house that had a single room and then a door that didn't open.

When I got to the door, I wasn't sure which of the following were true:

 

1. The door was supposed to open normally, but a bug was keeping it from working.

 

2. The door was supposed to open some other way (like a switch).

 

3. The door could only be opened by AI

(like the closet later in the mission).

 

 

4. The door was purely decorative.

 

If I saw the door didn't have a handle, I would immediately assume it was decorative. I realize not everyone would make that assumption, and obviously we can't force mappers to do things a specific way. Just sayin'.

[Fidcal]

Well, that's the thing. How does the player know that the door isn't supposed to open some other way?

You don't. I just accept all unfrobable doors as architecture and give them no more thought. The only exception is if there is some text or visual clue to suggest there might be a lever. For example, if I walk through a city mission and pass a dozen unfrobable doors I leave them alone. If I get a clue I am supposed to get into the red corner house then I inspect that house more carefully for windows, levers, moveable blocks, ways to climb up, chimney, whatever. Another exception is a special mechanical looking door that looks like it might use some special control. A drawbridge with a big windlass at the side. A portcullis with a chain leading up somewhere. Worth looking around for a lever.

[Unwanted Guest]

I never understood the un-openable door.

 

I read above about decoration; and comments about unopenable doors on houses....

All houses have doors and it is recognized that authors cannot make every house door open into a room - at least - but houses are to have doors and windows, to help define them as such ....hallways do NOT necessarily need doors. If I hear a dog, I dont need to see it, many times in life I hear dogs without seeing them, but never came across a door that never could be opened...

 

Instead of a dead door, put up paintings, make alcoves, benches, flags, something lying on the floor, etc to break up any monotony - but dont put doors that have no fucntion? What the heck is that?! - At times, I felt that the author (playing T1/2 missions) was saying HA HAH got you! when I spent quite a bit of time and effort getting to a fake door.

 

It is downright misleading, as it is not as advertised. I can understand broken doors that look broken or maybe 1 or 2 that dont look broken but 2 would be tops. If one wants to break up the hallway "cube" put doors with metal crossbars across it, or wooden planks or set a-kilter so it looks jammed...there is a diff between breaking up the monotony and misleading someone.

 

When life slows down enough (prob summer) I hope to be making at least one game, and without a doubt, In creating it, I will hang on a wall in a prominent hallway , within a clear glass frame, a life-size "painting" of a door.

 

It's pretty much of the same thing as these un-openable doors

 

Maybe I'll make a few .............

 

 

 

 

 

M

[Baddcog]

 

 

It is downright misleading, as it is not as advertised. I can understand broken doors that look broken or maybe 1 or 2 that dont look broken but 2 would be tops. If one wants to break up the hallway "cube" put doors with metal crossbars across it, or wooden planks or set a-kilter so it looks jammed...there is a diff between breaking up the monotony and misleading someone.

 

 

 

 

 

M

 

No doubt some spots can have better decor than a door. But sometimes you want players to path through a hallway, second floor building on a rooftop mission. Would be weird to climb through a window with only paintings on the wall and only a window and no doors. Say it's an apartment building, people live there. Again, this hallways leads to the sense of a larger world, just not one the player has to interact with.

And I doubt you'd have to go far out of your way in a situation like that to check a door.

 

But putting bars and boards across evry window or door a player can't use is just a way to dumb down a mission and it can look horrible.

And probably worse than having no doors/windows IMO.

In some cases it might work, ie: boarding up houses of plague victims, zombies...

But that's a limited case.

 

I did make some doorframes that are pre-boarded, but that was mainly for those exception spots. Hopefully we won't see missions full of boarded doors just to tell the player no way. Might as well hang a big NO sign in front of it.

[Fidcal]

How would you deal with the main entrance hall in Chalice of Kings? Clearly it would be very strange to have no doors in the entrance to a large house or mansion. Or doors that are boarded up. I cannot make them functioning doors else then I would be obliged to make the city that lies beyond those doors. Similarly the yard gate is bogus but it would be a queer yard that had no gate out to the streets.

[Unwanted Guest]

I have yet to play the game in order to address it. I can picture it maybe ....and something like that is more reasonable and understandable, I cannot remember the t2 mission it was ( I guess I would not name it anyway) but there was just waay too many fake doors. How many is too many? depends on the individual I know. ( Thanks for making that mission by the way - looking forward to it!). I still would consider kiltering a door.

 

 

 

But sometimes you want players to path through a hallway, second floor building on a rooftop mission. Would be weird to climb through a window with only paintings on the wall and only a window and no doors

 

I do see that and is understandable, I guess it is a all a case of reasonable door-placement ...... as opposed to door-decorations.

 

 

 

m

[demagogue]

Yeah, a single room by itself isn't reasonable. How does the AI get in? Where does he got to the bathroom? Where does he cook? Where does he dine? A dummy door solves all of these questions in one swoop, and is less a WTF? thing than the alternative (IMO).

 

I should say at least in my own mission, I did make a point of thinking about the player when dealing with dummy doors.

 

I first made sure they'd be in places that wouldn't mess with the gameplay. So I felt okay putting them in single rooms without (or with sleeping) AI, Edgar's and Fressard's, so the player goes up to them without cost, nothing highlights and he can just leave.

 

But notice I didn't put any in Benson's or Damuddy's -- the two houses with live, hostile AI in them -- exactly because I didn't want the player to go exploring some dummy door when there are hostile AI walking around. (Even though I got criticism from people worrying where Benson goes to the bathroom and cooks :-/ ) Actually, I did put some in, but then I took them out for this reason.

 

I also didn't put any in any out of touch place it would take work to get to ... They are all right in front of places the player would walk near in the course of the game anyway.

 

And I actually did leave the handle off one door, the big brown doors outside next to Damuddy's, because I didn't want players to even have a reason to go into the light to check it out, with all those AI around.

 

When you're building a mission though, so often you're just doing what seems right at the time when you build an area, it's not so planned out, and you don't reflect on it much afterwards, or you see 2 sides and can predict people will complain either way you do it, lol. So you do your best and throw it out there because at some point you've looked at it too much and it's time for it to go!

[kaldor]

I don´t know if our hero gets a voice (more than "oww" and "aaah" when hit).. Maybe if you frob a non-openable door he could say "It´s stuck!" or "Not a chance!" ... something like that. That would not break the immersion, but make things clear. In the Thief-Games, I remember Garrett talking often to himself