Things That Aren't Fun...

[New Horizon]

It wouldn't otherwise destroy or damage or even affect all those other things you mentioned (maximum mantle height, minimum crouch, long jump distance, etc), would it?

 

It could and most likely would. In addition, the scale of the player to the world objects would then be off...so all that stuff would need to be resized...including the AI. All current maps would then be completely broken as the world around around the player would either appear too large or too small. As was mentioned earlier, certain things were locked down early in development, you can't simply change those things after release.

[Midnight]

It could and most likely would. In addition, the scale of the player to the world objects would then be off...so all that stuff would need to be resized...including the AI. All current maps would then be completely broken as the world around around the player would either appear too large or too small. As was mentioned earlier, certain things were locked down early in development, you can't simply change those things after release.

 

Just a quick thought on the issue of the crouch height, I'm happy with it in all situations until I have to pick something from a chest where I seem too low to properly access the contents. I wonder if the lean forward control could raise the height just a tad (as well as the lean) so it feels like you're leaning over. Obviously I'm only talking about when already crouched and not standing, unless you want to be able to simulate standing on tip toes

[Springheel]

It could and most likely would. In addition, the scale of the player to the world objects would then be off...so all that stuff would need to be resized...including the AI.

 

I'm not sure how changing the player bounding box would affect the scale of the player. The player model wouldn't be any different. The only possible downside would be the player being able to squeeze into narrow spaces that they couldn't before (and possible clipping issues depending on the size).

 

The only thing that really kept us from doing this in the first place is that the player bounding box (which is actually a cylinder) stays oriented to the world, not the player. So you could probably make a rectangular box, but it would not turn when the player turns, making it pretty pointless.

[Fidcal]

Ah - in that case the narrow front to back idea wouldn't work. Well, only to squeeze into narrow east and west gaps but not north and south!

[New Horizon]

I'm not sure how changing the player bounding box would affect the scale of the player.

 

I thought he was suggesting we alter the scale of the player.

[Serpentine]

I've been playing around with Recast to try 'solve' problems like this lately. I wanted something to help mappers test for issues without wasting time that could be better spent doing real play-testing.

Part of what it does is path-finding and such, but it also provides a pretty good overview of areas that a player could abuse/get to at a glance.

 

For example here's what some rough settings show up on my mess around copy of Thieves :

[aidakeeley]

Alright guys, thanks for the explorations/explanations. I just thought Fidcal's idea of sidle-squeezing sounded pretty cool -- yet another great improvement that could add to gameplay. I think the cylinder model and the way it works does kibosh the question.

 

In my mind the gameplay changes compared to T2 are great! Combat, climbing, ect. It's different yes, but in it's own way not worse than the other thief games

 

It's not a better looking copy of T1-3 - it's a separate game with separate possibilities.

 

Absolutely.

 

This isn't meant to be a thread arguing that the differences in TDM are not improvements, they are. It's just meant to point out other things that maybe we can find some consensus to agree would be improvements too.

 

...

 

ETA:

 

I've been playing around with Recast to try 'solve' problems like this lately. I wanted something to help mappers test for issues without wasting time that could be better spent doing real play-testing.

 

You lazy so-and-so.

 

That is awesome.

Edited May 4, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Fidcal]

I've been playing around with Recast

I've no idea what this is or how it relates to this 'no fun' thread. A quick google search finds nothing. Can you explain? Perhaps start a new thread?

[pigtailsboy]

using keys and using lock picks should require the same distance from object to make use of them. I still haven't made a habit of being as close as possible to something when using keys. Scrolling through all the keys to make sure one of them isn't the one I need and then trying out the picks, only the picks require you to come face to face with the object to use them or the door or object won't highlight. Either the keys should require closer contact with the door or the picks should allow further distance from the door. This can't only be bothering me.

[aidakeeley]

I can see your point to some degree, but I think lockpicking is a little more delicate and therefore may require at least a bit more "intimacy"?

 

I could certainly get on board with some adjustment (but, for me, only in the make-key-use-require-closer-proximity not extending the lockpicking range), so I'm not shooting your notion down at all. Let's see what others think.

Edited May 5, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Serpentine]

I've no idea what this is or how it relates to this 'no fun' thread. A quick google search finds nothing. Can you explain? Perhaps start a new thread?

 

Hah, it is a bit off topic;

 

The aim of my little experiment is to release a version of recast that accurately shows TDM player/AI areas, as such while the defaults would be based on TDM it could also be used to see differences in things like jump height and player size. It works out if you can fit down cracks in a wall and stuff like that and also shows up areas where you can possibly get stuck(which increases when player size decreases) - at the moment I'm just using rough numbers but it's helped me spot a few areas in my map that I needed to look at making a bit more friendly to movement.

 

tl;dr it's mostly for testing but can also be used to check if changes to jump/player size/etc change things dramatically on certain maps.

[New Horizon]

using keys and using lock picks should require the same distance from object to make use of them. I still haven't made a habit of being as close as possible to something when using keys. Scrolling through all the keys to make sure one of them isn't the one I need and then trying out the picks, only the picks require you to come face to face with the object to use them or the door or object won't highlight. Either the keys should require closer contact with the door or the picks should allow further distance from the door. This can't only be bothering me.

 

Realism vs Gameplay. Even in real life you could use a key from further away than you can a set of lock picks. Ideally, while picking, you would kneel dow but I feel it would be bad form to force the player to crouch just to initiate picking, so shortening the distance is a compromise of sorts.

 

In any case, I personally wouldn't want the key distance any shorter so I guess the alternative would be to make the picking distance longer, but then that defeats the purpose...so, I don't know. lol

[Fidcal]

Maybe the reasoning was this: Door frob distance is long to give good game flow through doors so you don't need to stop and stand on one side every time. Unlocking with a key is similar but you have to move a bit closer but can still unlock and move through quickly. Lockpicking you have to stop and spend some time on the action; maybe crouch to view the handle position.

 

Serp: yeah but what is it? I just done another google search but can't find anything. Am I the only one here who never heard of recast?

[Serpentine]

Serp: yeah but what is it? I just done another google search but can't find anything. Am I the only one here who never heard of recast?

 

http://code.google.com/p/recastnavigation/

 

But it'll only really be of interest to a small group of people - who like looking at technical stuff

[New Horizon]

Looks like it could be very useful for mappers, yes indeed, and it's open source...so if there are any TDM specific things added...we could rebrand it.

[Fidcal]

It would need someone to produce a custom application and some decent user info. I downloaded it and it is incomprehensible to me without info. It seems to assume everyone knows exactly what it is and how to use it and can also code, customise and compile it. Worthless to most people in this form I would think.

[New Horizon]

It would need someone to produce a custom application and some decent user info. I downloaded it and it is incomprehensible to me without info. It seems to assume everyone knows exactly what it is and how to use it and can also code, customise and compile it. Worthless to most people in this form I would think.

 

lol

[Crispy]

I've been playing around with Recast to try 'solve' problems like this lately.

That is frickin' awesome. I glanced at Recast a little while ago and it sounded pretty good. How's it treating you?

 

It would need someone to produce a custom application and some decent user info. I downloaded it and it is incomprehensible to me without info. It seems to assume everyone knows exactly what it is and how to use it and can also code, customise and compile it. Worthless to most people in this form I would think.

Well, yeah. It's a code library, intended for use by programmers, to be integrated into their own applications. Definitely not designed for end-users directly; not even for very savvy end-users.

[Fidcal]

Well, yeah. It's a code library, intended for use by programmers, to be integrated into their own applications. Definitely not designed for end-users directly; not even for very savvy end-users.

Thanks. That's what I like to see - some sensible information summarised in a couple of sentences.

[Serpentine]

That is frickin' awesome. I glanced at Recast a little while ago and it sounded pretty good. How's it treating you?

 

At the moment I'm still tinkering around with it - I've recently reinstalled windows so that I can actually install VS and hopefully do some more productive things with my time. The code looks quite nice and the author knows what he's doing and seems a very nice guy from looking at the ogre forum (he's porting to ogre, yay)

I have a few things I'd like to do in order to improve DR's usability (i.e moving a few windows into tabs when in tabbed view; texture inspector and layers mainly(tho still quickly swappable with hotkey). But my real look will be at how everything sticks together. Recast would allow mappers a better way to see player and AI movement but also reduce testing time and such - players have a better experience at the end of the day, but adding to that, I think it would be nice to have a possible direction to go in when/if doom3 source is released in regards to AI and reducing the hardware intensity by using Recast. But these are all ideas and this is somewhat going off topic... so maybe I'll update you in the future if it goes anywhere

[Komag]

That sounds very promising for the future, so many possibilities!

[aidakeeley]

Just reading through some threads about readables triggering things and such...

 

First let me say that one of the many great things about TDM over that other older thing... is the readbles being an "in-game" thing now. Where the game goes on AND we can still see the game going on off to the sides.

 

I wonder, though, if maybe the readables could -- rather than have this semi-special interactivity -- might just be simply (?I say simply?) manipulatable objects that we can pick up, spin, drop, flip and flop around with? So that we can have an even more realistic experience? Good light, bad light, wide view, close view, angled view, all that...

 

?

[Mortem Desino]

It sounds realistic, but it also sounds like an annoyance; or people would interpret it as a graphics bug - "OMG WHY ARE PAPERS SQUISHED WEIRD?" "AUGH PAPER TOO DARK I CAN'T READ IT!"

[aidakeeley]

True, but I'd really like the hell out of it.

 

And, upon thinking about it a bit, I guess the capability is already there, no? I saw some really great pots with intricate "writing" on them in y'all's campaign. Loved looking inside those! The big white and purple plant pots...

 

I do hope some FM author will give the fully manipulable readable idea a go.

 

I put this idea here without expressing the "not fun" part. Like I said, I do love the non-pause reading, but -- and this plays a bit on the crouch height thing -- I often find myself reading texts while crouched because, upon standing up, I "lose hold".

 

So, am I right? It would be entirely doable with the system as is? Just by making the "readable" an normal (but detailed) object that can be picked up?

Edited May 10, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Fidcal]

To some extent you can, at least with page 1 and 'open books' etc. Select the readable in the inventory and press the drop control. The readable drops into the carry position where you can rotate it etc. You can't get it very close for reading though.