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My wife just thinks they are bad parents because of the child's poor social skills (he doesn't share or cooperate)...

 

But as a Nanny she thinks everyone is a bad parent :laugh:...

 

I'm sure she thinks that I'm looney as a coo-coo puff (as most people do... :laugh:)

 

Someday I will understand the human animal until then take all my words with much needed sodium :laugh:

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I've got this comical picture of a perhaps-a-bit-homely husband gradually becoming more and more infatuated with window-spying on the "suspiciously elderly neighbors", and ultimately letting his erratic mix of an eccentric and suspecting mind pervert the reality of the situation into some form of pedophilia hysteria.

 

Or maybe I've been watching too many Coen brothers films (of course, in such a movie, the actual situation would be revealed as nothing of the sort ... and rather something much more bizarre).

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(Edit: mis-read that last one... sorry... and very funny... I can almost imagine myself squirming in the theater over some obviously awkward, bu innocent, social scene happening at the old folks house :laugh:)

 

Well, if:

 

"Subverting irrational guilt by letting community standards dictate an approximate moral compass" is much more bizarre then we have a definitive answer. :laugh:

 

To spell out more clearly the question and answer:

 

Question: Are you morally required in ANY way to follow up on "gut feelings" that make no sense?

 

Answer: Even though these "gut feelings" have no rational basis they may arise due to built-in biological triggers. You must weigh the probability that the "gut feeling" is above some statistical mean against how much benefit you could possibly provide by following up. If you wish to exceed all community standards for living up to moral requirements you will have to take up a VERY uncomfortable long-term investigation that resides within the realm of fair-play, decency, and preserves the virtues of privacy and freedom.

 

If you are like me, however, you merely want to be "normal" and therefore will be satisfied that most people would set aside this irrational cue and you are no more condemned than anybody else.

Edited by nbohr1more

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Why delete the thread? Although some people here seem to be outright appalled by the fact that nbohr1more would dare to share such thoughts, I thought this was a comical and perhaps interesting discussion (very suited to offtopic).

 

Don't need to take things so seriously. I always enjoyed the fact that one need not be so self-conscious and proactively defensive when posting something on these forums...

Edited by woah
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Yeah...

 

I thought that Thief players liked to discuss topics of morality and I would get some interesting insights. I will say that while I was disappointed in myself for my poor communication I am delighted that Demagogue and Melan sorted through the trash-heap of my verbiage and rendered such a cogent solution. Bravo! :)

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If there's one downside to modern society, it's the number of organisations that have set up to specifically mind other people's business.

There's always been curtain twitchers like the OP, but now it's industrialised.

I live in the UK, where there's now about the same number of CCTV cameras as citizens.

Has it reduced crime?

Has it fuck.

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(I was actually hoping this thing would either die or be killed... my embarrassment continues... so be it :blush: )

 

"Curtain Twitcher"?

 

The whole point of this thread was for me to avoid having to be a "Curtain Twitcher".

 

God yelled at me in a dream to "DO SOMETHING YOU LAZY APATHETIC SCUM"

 

So I proved to God (I hope):

 

1) I'm no Abraham... my faith is very weak

 

2) I'm no worse than anyone else

 

God has since stopped yelling (no more nightmares) I can now continue my life of damned amoral apathy :laugh:

 

 

Cameras as crime prevention would only work if we had AI smart enough to catch bad behavior. Not sure if I'd want to live in that world though...

Edited by nbohr1more

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I fear that "getting God off my back" came at the great cost of alienating this community :(.

(And it's probably not enough martyrdom to get myself off the hot-seat anyway...)

(Plus I have some beefs with God about his whole "Faith Requirement" so I'll probably burn anyway :unsure: )

Edited by nbohr1more

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Maybe starting ignoring this thread should stop the alienating process and slowly it will fade. ;)

 

But seriously, it´s up to you. From what I read there is not much wrong and as your wife does know a lot about children you should listen to her and watching the child´s behavior.

If there maybe will be sth. wrong in the future, can the Youth Welfare Office be trusted?

 

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I fear that "getting God off my back" came at the great cost of alienating this community :(.

(And it's probably not enough martyrdom to get myself off the hot-seat anyway...)

(Plus I have some beefs with God about his whole "Faith Requirement" so I'll probably burn anyway :unsure: )

 

I get the impression you've never read the Bible. Even if you've gone to church, even if you've watched movies on the subject or read summaries and interpretations online you wont understand any of it until you read the thing. When I started I had so many questions, criticisms, and generally low faith, but the book answered them all for me. I don't think you should be afraid of being alienated due to your beliefs either, I'd hope this forum isn't bigoted like that. But religion is a very touchy subject and I hope we don't end up debating it because it just ends up in fruitless effort (no one would ever change their faith due to a debate imo).

 

But as for the point of this thread. I'd say just keep an eye on the place when your doing your stuff, don't go out of the way to discover what their doing and never ever report them unless you see the kid getting beaten like everyday or sexually abused in some way. Just think if your neighbor reported you on suspicion how supremely pissed off you'd be at even the allegations alone. But I think your instincts are probably correct in that this family is dysfunctional in some way.

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OK...

 

Two lightning strikes today at work (with corresponding power outages)!

 

(Maybe I'm not off the hook! :laugh:)

 

Thanks for your take on things jdude. I will keep an open mind.

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People do this all the time with everything: history, sociology, philosophy, politics, sciences, news ect it's not isolated to religion.

 

People might say they accept a particular theory without fully understanding the theory. But they don't generally say, "I firmly believe everything in this book is true" without actually knowing what the book says. This is frequently the case when it comes to religion in Western societies.

 

If you haven't read the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments, your post looks to Mark Twain to give his interpretation which is what I am describing of people looking for summaries of the validity or details of subjects. But you may have I dunno :P Nothing's wrong with that it's just what people do.

 

Yes, I've read the Bible, as well as a good sampling of apologetics literature to go with it. Twain's quote just happened to be short, sweet and succinct.

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People might say they accept a particular theory without fully understanding the theory. But they don't generally say, "I firmly believe everything in this book is true" without actually knowing what the book says. This is frequently the case when it comes to religion in Western societies.

 

Yea I know, and it's sad really because I find it breads misconceptions about the real meaning of it. Whether one believes the messages is one thing, but the message shouldn't be distorted by people who have no idea what their talking about because then it's not the real message. I think it's important to understand the true text before either accepting or rejecting it rather than relying on others interpretations.

 

Most the people you are referring too become defensive about their beliefs easily simply because their beliefs are so weak I think. If they had actual faith in the Bible, they would not be shaken by harsh words against it. Ever since I've started to read it I've come to the conclusion that no one should argue either for, or against the Bible (which ever version) unless they've read it front to back. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe whatever, but just don't spout off for, or against it because your more than likely wrong about some component of it. (Not directed any anyone here just a reflection of the people where I live :P )

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A religion discussion! How wonderful!

Must resist.. Do not reply... Move mouse away... Close the window...

*Clicks reply*

 

The only supernatural, the only magic there is, is the technology so advanced it appears to be magic. Like my cellphone.

 

ARGH!

 

I've tried to read the bible once. I halted the process because it was boring and full of nonsense. There was this hilarious part when someone had a zillion descendants and the most important was a daughter named Naama, which means 'face' in my language. And then she had a zillion of descendants.

 

Belief-systems had their time and they were useful once in human history. Sitting by the campfire primitive people were wondering why the sky is blue and what the heck are the white dots up there. It was easy for the old crone sitting by the fire invent some stories about Higher Powers to entertain the audience and to sound wise. After that it was downhills full of zealous idiots. Just look at the damage the plethora of religions is causing us? Or well. Not the religions but the fundamentalists of each religion.

 

Nowadays we have science. You can actually KNOW things. No need the believe. You set up a neat series of experiments and you prove that something works somehow. Then you figure out how it happens and why. Then you replicate the experiment just to be sure. Phenomenom is explained. If you don't want to bother doing experiments, buy a journal which describes the experiments done by others. If you have disagreements, you can just say 'prove it.' If the other proves it with valid experimentation, you do not have much to say to that, except 'You were right!"

 

Information obtained by experiments show that the bible contains incorrect data. How could it contain realistic data? It is the 'bold and the beautiful' of its time. It is a storybook. Lord of the rings. The most important contents are the ambiguous moral lessons. Still some people stick to it zealously. I think there was a section where it tells you that it is entirely okay to stone to death a person who has more than two different fibers in their clothes. Frightening. You do not need the bible to live morally nice life. Stick to my guidlines: 0) Be nice to others 1) Don't be a prick. 2) Always be polite. 3) No backstabbing! 4) Try to avoid vices.

 

And the other thing that frightens the crap out of me is creationism (or the modernized aspect of that). They teach that in schools somewhere! Irresponsible spreading of ignorance! Brainwashing!

 

But hey, there is still room for faith beyond the topics understood by science for those who'd prefer to believe in God. These people just need to update their knowledge as new information sinks in.

 

And in the end, while I think the way I do, I still think God isn't angry with me. If she is omnipotent, as she should be by definition, she should be able to forgive everything, including my heretical thoughts. I suppose she'd be happy if I simply will not accept religious dogma, but think with my own brains instead. I'm using the thinking powers she granted me in the first place. Thus, heaven place awaits me like everyone else. Should be a muslim, though. I heard they have zillions of virgins beauties in there. No wait... I think that was the fundamentalist terrorist section.

 

*Closes door and windows, Puts on full riot gear, hides behind a table full of lab equipment and improvises a flamethrower using a bunsen burner and a gas pipe.*

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-The mapper's best friend.

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Well that's even more good news.

 

I had seriously felt that Objective Truth was a DEAD concept in academia and along with it Pure Mathematics.

 

Now I feel like a hopeful new foundation is out there and that the stability of reason has a chance to flourish again.

 

:)

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But as it stands my only reference for "Moral guidance outside of religion" is a Marxist essay

 

The idea that we get our morals from religion is a very common misconception. Morality is basically a set of guidelines for how to behave in social environments (a hermit in a cave has little opportunity to be either moral or immoral). It is easy to demonstrate how basic morality (don't harm others in your social group; help them when you can) would give a survival advantage to any band of primates that adopted it. That's all that is needed to make natural selection a likely cause. The basic tenets of morality are the same in every religion, which makes it even more obvious that they were known before those religions were written down.

 

If you wanted to claim that morality comes from religion, you would have to show that non-religious people are inherently less moral. Studies actually show the reverse; countries with higher levels of secularism rank higher in the kinds of things you would expect in a "moral" society--less violent crime, greater protection of the poor, less prejudice, greater literacy, lower infant mortality rates, etc.

 

The third and final nail in the "religion makes people moral" argument is the fact that most of what is written in the world's major religions (the three Abrahamic faiths, at any rate) is completely immoral by today's standards. The God of the Old Testament endorses slavery, genocide and the mass murder of children. He commands that you stone to death those who work on the wrong day, is willing to curse children for the crimes of their great grandparents, and considers willingness to murder your child on command a sign of righteousness. Modern people are rightly put off by these things, and tend to select the parts of the Bible that meet our modern sensibilities. But in order to apply them to the Bible, those sensibilities must obviously come from somewhere else.

 

But TBH in regards to 'science vs religion' I see no other conflict other than creationism vs evolution present which isn't THAT big a deal

 

You don't think it's a big deal that nearly half the population of the United States thinks the world is younger than 10000 years? That requires a stunning dismissal of virtually every single branch of science that there is--geology, physics, chemistry, cosmology, biology, anthropology, paleontology, astronomy, and genetics. How is that not a big deal??

 

Fact is we don't know how it all started and never will all we can do is postulate and some people thing A is more believable than B or C and that's fine imo.

 

We actually know a great deal about "how it all started" and continue to discover more all the time. Most people just don't bother to learn much about it, preferring to brush aside hundreds of years of knowledge because they find a bronze-age book to be more believable. Whether or not something is "believable" has very little relevance to whether or not it's TRUE. Facts are not a matter of personal preference.

 

What would be the fun in living if we all thought the same thing?

 

We're not talking about people's taste in ice-cream here. Religion purports to answer highly significant questions about the universe and our place in it. For the record, I'd have a lot more "fun" living in a world where I didn't have to worry about someone crashing a plane into my city because they believed a god was going to reward them for it.

 

:P I also don't get why you think religion would impede scientific process. Please elaborate.

 

:huh: Seriously? Start with Galileo and take a trip to the present state of stem cell research, and see if you find a few answers along the way.

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Demagogue, I really have to disagree. Modern philosophy is almost irrelevant, it's a pointless game of ping pong between people who think it's clever, but its effect on the societal changes we've seen over the last 50 years is negligible. I think of philosophy more as a branch of the arts, it's nice to have it around, but it's ultimately irrelevant and we could easily live without it.

Science has much more of a claim to moving society forward with the technology that has allowed mass communication, removed the insular nature of the past, and increased the standard of living for the average person. That's what really matters to people. What science does is concrete and irrefutable, you can hold it in your hand. What philosophy does is...what?

It's science and it's direct descendants such as technology that have removed the 'them and us' mentality of the past, and is increasingly laying bare the accountability of those in power. That's really what is going to continue to advance WORLD society, not the big-worded musings of philosophers.

No one pays any attention to them. Your average pop star has more influence.

You might say the job of philosophers is to decide the morality of new science such as human genetic modification, but it's not, and they won't decide it , they'll just argue about it, using as large a vocabulary as possible, like they argue about everything else and never come to any conclusion.

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What danger does it pose that nearly half the population of the US, the nuke-wielding top-world-politics world-economic-superpower country, has a deliberately distorted views on the world around them? I can think of many problems, and this is the thing I am really worried about.

 

That's the thing that is dangerous. There is strength in numbers. A few mistaught people is not a problem but if there is a horde of them, there may be dangerous consequences. In the end creationism is really doing a big disservice to the world and it may take a long time to repair the damage. They even have their own wikipedia to aid misguiding people.

 

Firstly, it's not like there's been a surge of religious people in the USA, they've existed there since the start of the country so why now would they use Nukes on countries that believe other than them? It's a strawman argument imo. But your allowed to form a conspiracy theory that this is going to happen

 

And I agree with your second first half statement, but I don't think a couple of idiots is reason enough to abolish something. Why not abolish the internet for all it's immorality and lies then? And to me it seems you're taking a couple people who run a Wikipedia and stereotyping all people with it assuming all them would agree with the actions their taking. If people were so easily 'brainwashed' as you seem to think why isn't there more religious people than there is now? Why aren't we all under the hand of Germany or Japan since they told us they'd offer us peace and prosperity?

 

Do you honestly think that the USA would be less likely to go to war if they all believed in evolution and carbon dating rather than creationism? If you do please explain to me how and do me one better and show me in the past some righteous religious wars the US has been involved in to prove your theory to me.

 

In addition believing in creationism isn't an improper view of the world AROUND you it's the world that existed before you so other than not believing a couple scientific articles (should all blue and white collar workers go out of their way to read these to create the utopia you appear to think can exist if they do?) explain to me how it's going to create conflict.

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Actually, I never went so far as to claim that you cannot rationally believe in a religion. It may be possible. It would depend on what exactly the person believed and why he or she believed it.

I think I'm misinterpreting some of what your saying then. Look at post 83. I speak of church and state which is separation of laws and religion. So your reply to it, which may not have been directed at religion, but rather creationism, is a little misleading. Because I thought when you were referring to "When people are encouraged to believe in irrational things, they tend to become less rational (go figure)" as encouraging people to believe in a religion. This sentence would label religion and it's followers as irrational.

 

Then right under it we have you mentioning the danger of Islam to bring up danger of religious beliefs.

Then if what I'm thinking it snowballs because there's no visible change in subject from creationists, or general religions.

This happens again on your post 91, where you respond to

You've been communicating to me that all religious people are irrational and sponges for false information which results in a danger to society.

Your answer, imo, implies that religion = irrationality because of how your using the term faith which I interpreted to be a replacement word for 'religious people' from my post.

 

I deleted the rest of my comments because I don't even know if we are talking about the same thing. :wacko:

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This kinda reminds me of my troubles with the ole Hollywood idea of an Artificial Intelligence gone amok.

 

We understand the motivations of a human that wants to rule the world but why would a computer want to rule the world. Unless the person who made the AI gave it emotions or primordial desires the AI would have no emotional need\desire to rule anything.

 

I tried to contemplate on this emotion-free plane of existence once and found that it was a bleak place to live just as Tolstoy had warned it would be.

 

On the other hand, we humans are often overrun with emotion and striving for rational, logical, and objective is a great way reign-in our wildness and get some work done (and keep from being cruel, unfair, etc).

 

As a side note:

 

I think that Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr's back and forth over Quantum Mechanics is the most interesting example of the effect of Religious thought on a Scientific debate.

 

Even though Einstein essentially made the field of Quantum Mechanics possible by developing the dual-nature photon model, he did not like (emotion) the idea that probability played any role in reality. He went almost as far as to call the belief that Quantum Mechanics is the final theory "heresy" because he simply could not accept that God would create the Universe with probability interwoven into the underlying structure.

 

Neils Bohr, on the other hand, used Eastern Mysticism to reconcile the bizarre magical qualities of the Quantum World. Since he knew he would have trouble conveying this way of thought he publicly adopted the Copenhagen Interpretation which essentially urges the experimenter to forget even attempting to develop a conceptual understanding of the results and simply focus on the resultant math and phenomenon.

 

Throughout their arguments Einstein created the most extreme thought experiments to prove how absurd Quantum Mechanics is and that there must be an underlying classical mechanic to it all. To this day we continue to perform Einsteins experiments yet to our surprise (and especially Einstein's) the bizarre results keep coming true.

 

So this stubborn religious streak in Einstein which, if it were enforced via dogma, would have held back Scientific progress instead has advanced Science because Einstein adhered strictly to the Scientific method in spite of his feelings and let the results speak for themselves.

 

If all the Religious folk out there who object to Scientific data would propose experiments to prove or disprove their own claims the light of Science would shine even farther in spite of the motivations of the experimenters (presuming that the results were not "interpreted" into oblivion....:laugh:)

 

(Just wanted to mention Neils Bohr :laugh: )

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