Promoting TDM

[Tels]

About updating Wikipedia:

 

We could add a few lines there at 2009 but it needs some thought as to the wording.

 

"Thief-inspired Dark Mod (a doom 3 mod) took stealth to the next level.. etc."

 

I think the wikipedia article lists more or less advancements, so you don't see Thief: Deadly Shadows listed, as it brings "nothing new" to the genre.

 

One think TDM does bring, tho, is the real-time, real-3d, real-shadow lightgem. In Thief The Dark Project the lightgem only tracked whether the floor was lit, or not and deduced from that if you are lit or not. In TDM the engine computes whether you are lit or not by taking in-game camera shots of a white pyramid and measures the light this way. Thus all real-time shadows and shading are applied to the light gem, too. This gives you a real-time measurement in a realistic and unprecedenced way.

 

Not sure if other (newer) games have that, but I doubt it somehow.

 

Just saying..

[Tels]

That's exactly what I remembered. Strider's article was not only good, but also illustrated in two different forms the TDM logo with the name in it, too. Thanks, Fidcal

 

I don't think this is our logo, or at least I have never seen it before:

 

http://sureasshiretalk.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/patrick-stewart-more-pewpew.jpg

 

[rich_is_bored]

It seems to me the people who would benefit most from a grand unifying campaign are those seeking entertainment over everything else. And I don't see it as a huge loss if folks that can't offer more than a play through test the waters and go look for entertainment elsewhere.

 

TDM is young. It's constantly being refined and polished. It's not stagnant like a commercial title where 5 years from now it's going to be exactly the same experience. It can only get better so long as people continue making contributions.

 

And that brings me to the point of this post. What TDM needs, and what the folks here should be hoping to attract, are developer types who see the potential rather than critics who see nothing but flaws. As long as there is a constant influx of talent making contributions of all sorts, TDM will flourish and popularity will be a side effect.

[Tels]

An official campaign could mitigate this potential damage, as well as showcase the finest points of TDM in one neat package.

 

Yes, and a pony could make you travel faster.

 

You have to face it, there will NOT be (I'd almost bet on it) an official campaign. The team is already overworked and busy rolling out new features, fix bux and improve the art assets - there is zero time for mapping or other activities. And even if we had the time, we simply don't have the manpower for a campaign!

 

Edit: Fidcal is busy mapping, and you can see that this leads to the other effect - he has almost zero time for contributions! The difficulty here is that if $TeamMember makes a nice FM, you get one-two hour entertainment. But if $TeamMember fixes a bug, improves a texture, or adds art assets, then suddenly all FMs are improved in a small way. So while I like Fidcals FMs a lot (and I think TDM would be a lot less attractive w/o them), I also like how we (the developers, artists and the contributors like Fidcal) still bring TDM forward. Making a campaign is like making a mod for a game - but in our case I'd rather improve "the game" than make a campaign for it. After all, the constant improvement is what makes TDM different from "a new level for $game"-mods that you see spring up so often for other engines.

 

While I agree it would nice to have, and we really need to not have first bad impressions, these things don't follow from each other.

 

First, the official FMs are all someone quality vetted - we will never host a "2 room mison made by a 5 year old". Plus, I think with the new in-game downloader, we can also add difficulty and quality ratings to the FMs. (As thew list grows, this will become unevitable anyway). This way people can play the easier and more higher rated missions first, preventing the "omg it sucks" experience.

 

One thing that would be nice was an updated training mission (or maybe a prelude to it), that takes the player on his/her hand and makes it linear, and teaches him everything in small steps, where you can't bypass certain things if you aren't doing them right (like frobbing the first book with the instructions). The current "open-way" training mission is very confusing for newbies (some even manage not to notice the book and frob it, and then promptly rush out to fighting and get stuck, decalre "this game sucks" and leave - have seen it...), plus it has deficits (like the archer range training you only in broadheads, no water arrows, no roping, no gas/fire arrows, no arrow recovery, etc. making people go "huh?").

 

However, as you can see, the training mission is only a small thing, and it hasn't been updated in over a year - so how do you think we could manage a campaign with that speed?

 

Edit: Added a missing "not". Sorry

[ungoliant]

alright, fine, down in flames it goes again, but i'm not the first, and definitely won't be the last to push this agenda as a means of promoting TDM.

 

And don't forget, the end products that TDM pushes out is indeed playable content. Top notch official playable content should be there to back up the top notch official toolset.

 

(I AM NOT saying we don't have top notch content already, this thread is about promoting TDM, not how epic it already is. Promotion is easier if you have amazing "official" content to shove down critics and reviewers and peers throats, as it allows brand name recognition of a certain amount of playable content instead of just the toolset, among other things. there, i'm done.)

[Tels]

alright, fine, down in flames it goes again, but i'm not the first, and definitely won't be the last to push this agenda as a means of promoting TDM.

 

If everytime someone "pushed that agenda", the'd invest instead one hour contributing to TDM, we would be off much better, regardless on whether they worked towards the campaign or the toolset

 

Nothing personal, I can understand the frustration, but constant "requesting" doesn't free up developer time or accomplish anything except pushing us beyond the "heh there is demand for it" stage, but we already know this from TTLG

[ungoliant]

i wouldn't dare keep suggesting things if I wasn't willing to work to make it happen. maybe i'm not part of the team, but I do my part in my own small way around here, other than whine about how awesome it would be if everyone could do 4000 hours of work right away please.

[Melan]

And that brings me to the point of this post. What TDM needs, and what the folks here should be hoping to attract, are developer types who see the potential rather than critics who see nothing but flaws. As long as there is a constant influx of talent making contributions of all sorts, TDM will flourish and popularity will be a side effect.

Your point meshes well with this blog post on how fan communities are mostly shaped by those who do - people who invest their time and effort to bettering the experience for everyone. Unlike commercial games, that is all TDM has, what we as a community add to it. That also, to an extent, sets the direction of development. Anyone can say they would like models with a different style from what Nosslak is creating and contributing, but unless they do the work, that's just a wish, not a push. The same with everything else. Last evening, since I was too tired to work on my level having just finished a project at my job, I instead took 15 source images I had downloaded from CGTextures and created textures from them. We will see later with Serpentine which of them would be good for the core mod, and which might simply go into a level. But all in all, with these textures come my personal views on the desirable look and feel of the mod (they are textures I would personally be likely to use), and I took up texturing because I wanted those views realised.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Melan

[STiFU]

What rich just said, was indeed very encouraging ... and wise! ;-)

 

As far as the official campaign notion is concerned, it might just be wise to make sure people play the right content at first. In the future, that could be a rating system, but in the meantime, we could either have something like NHAT included in the download-package or somehow communicate to the newbies, to go play that, after they tried the trainingmission.

 

Not sure if other (newer) games have that, but I doubt it somehow.

Splinter Cell of course has it.

 

I instead took 15 source images I had downloaded from CGTextures and created textures from them. We will see later with Serpentine which of them would be good for the core mod, and which might simply go into a level.

I wonder why none of your textures are listed in the "What's new in TDM 1.03" article so far. From what I hear, you have been working with Serpentine for quite some time now, contributing textures all over the place.

[Tels]

Splinter Cell of course has it.

 

Does it really? Can you please give me a link or something that shows how Splinter Cell does it? Would be very interested in this!

 

I wonder why none of your textures are listed in the "What's new in TDM 1.03" article so far. From what I hear, you have been working with Serpentine for quite some time now, contributing textures all over the place.

 

A: That article is updated very infrequently and not complete yet (and it would be better if the developers needn't waste their time with this *hint hint hint*

B: Melan's textures are not yet in the repository, but we all hope we can manage this before v1.03 is ready (The "we have no manpower" argument again)

[Sotha]

Hey, what an interesting discussion!

 

On a campaign:

Not much point to repeat what has been said. Basically it would be nice to have, yes there would be a benefit, but the team should be able to focus fully on the REAL things and not on a campaign.

 

So here is simply a thought. Most of you have probably thought about it anyways, but I'll put it on-screen.

1. Gather a bunch of mappers from the community.
2. Together, devise a main story concept. Examples: "A master thief in the turmoils of the metal age." "A clever burglar gets stuck in hidden warfare between the nobility of Bridgeport"
3. Together, write a story, which spans multiple missions. (Mission amount = the amount of participating mappers). The story proceed by the-tip-of-the-iceberg -style: first missions only hints of whats to come. Then midpoint with dreadful ramifications and finally the ending.
4. Then each mapper go and creates the map which provides the needed story-fragment. Freely, but within the campaign story specifications. Each map should be aimed to be roughly medium-sized. We know from our contests that nice medium/small missions can be created in few months.
5. Betatesting would be also done by the main mapper circle. Graphical genius mappers could help not-so-graphical genius mappers.
6. Combine missions, add briefings, TDM team codes campaign support.
7. We have a ready campaign which could be supplied with the MOD. Even the tutorial mission could be updated, converted and written so that it fits IN the campaign.

Additional points:

• The plot and the maps would be only known by the main mappers, but the community could provide supporting assistance.
• Community could support the mapping progress by creating sounds, models and textures, whatever each can or is able to create.
• Even people who have limited time could spend a hour of ten by make prefabs, steampunk prop buildings, or similar objects (on-request) to help the campaign contributing main mappers.

[Springheel]

Pandering to ridiculousness is pandering to ridiculousness. If there are people at ttlg who insist on having an official character and an official campaign so they can feel comfortable in their Official UnderRoos they should not hesitate to get busy with it and take all the time they want.

 

I like the idea of having many campaigns and many FMs created piecemeal or episodically or individually, in teams or by one person... But I do not want to see all the TDM team and star mappers tied up in the creation of some grand campaign.

 

Agreed 100%.

[jaxa]

My point is that 10000 people who know nothing about TDM could roll up, download a terrible FM by a 5 year old kid as their first TDM experience, and get the completely wrong impression about TDM and its capabilities, and just leave, or even tell people not to play it, or write scathing articles that would be read by lots of people. These types of first impressions are what we should want to avoid.

 

So I guess no Total Crap contest anytime soon?

[Sotha]

So I guess no Total Crap contest anytime soon?

 

Hey are we gonna have a TDM christmas contest?

[Aprilsister]

If it'll get you mapping again... I say "hell yes," I am the official X2010C host and the theme is "The Thief Who Stole Xmas From The Rich And Gave It To The Poor"

 

Kick Off: Now.

Deadline: Xmas Eve. No exceptions. Can't meet it, no big deal it's just a contest a little light fun.

Restrictions beside some semblance of adhering to the theme: None.

Maximum entries per author: None.

 

In Grand Celebration of 1.03! ...and Xmas

Edited November 26, 2010 by Aprilsister

[nbohr1more]

Hey, what an interesting discussion!

 

On a campaign:

Not much point to repeat what has been said. Basically it would be nice to have, yes there would be a benefit, but the team should be able to focus fully on the REAL things and not on a campaign.

 

So here is simply a thought. Most of you have probably thought about it anyways, but I'll put it on-screen.

1. Gather a bunch of mappers from the community.
2. Together, devise a main story concept. Examples: "A master thief in the turmoils of the metal age." "A clever burglar gets stuck in hidden warfare between the nobility of Bridgeport"
3. Together, write a story, which spans multiple missions. (Mission amount = the amount of participating mappers). The story proceed by the-tip-of-the-iceberg -style: first missions only hints of whats to come. Then midpoint with dreadful ramifications and finally the ending.
4. Then each mapper go and creates the map which provides the needed story-fragment. Freely, but within the campaign story specifications. Each map should be aimed to be roughly medium-sized. We know from our contests that nice medium/small missions can be created in few months.
5. Betatesting would be also done by the main mapper circle. Graphical genius mappers could help not-so-graphical genius mappers.
6. Combine missions, add briefings, TDM team codes campaign support.
7. We have a ready campaign which could be supplied with the MOD. Even the tutorial mission could be updated, converted and written so that it fits IN the campaign.

Additional points:

• The plot and the maps would be only known by the main mappers, but the community could provide supporting assistance.
• Community could support the mapping progress by creating sounds, models and textures, whatever each can or is able to create.
• Even people who have limited time could spend a hour of ten by make prefabs, steampunk prop buildings, or similar objects (on-request) to help the campaign contributing main mappers.

 

 

This post deserves it's own thread. (Or possibly even a Moddb article...)

 

To me a community lead effort to create a Dark Mod campaign is the best gift and thanks that we can offer to the TDM Team for the work they do.

 

 

I was thinking of the complications of a collaborative process when Sotha explained how he felt that it would lead to "too many cooks in the kitchen" for a single mission project. This was my naive fantasy about how this would work for a single large mission:

 

1) Two authors create small maps with a connective cave

2) When the maps are completed each author is given license to change aspects of each other's map

3) The changes are reviewed and the the agreeable ones are kept at the discretion of the original mapper for each map

4) The maps are connected then refined, tweaked etc.

 

In my dream world pairings like Demagogue (with his knack for clever cerebral puzzles) with Jesps (with his pure universal joy-of-play scenarios), would lend missions interesting contrasts and tensions.

 

For a campaign, the above could be six small/medium maps made into 3 mega maps.

 

OK, I'll come down from my cloud now... But it sure would be fun to see something like this happen.

[Aprilsister]

DarkRadiant is a massive improvement over D3Radiant

 

Having seen this posted by Moth in the Editors Gulid section and having some idea that Darkradient can be used for general D3 mapping which I only guess at. If it is so then maybe the DarkRadient should be promoted as well or as much as TDM along side TDM. Because it may get alot of D3 people initially interested by allowioing them to create their D3 levels and then they say oh this is great and start to wonder what kind of people would go cretae such a nice program. Then they say oh these Thief people. Maybe Thief is great too. Specifically TDM.

 

Builder converts!

[nbohr1more]

Yeah, I was having a look at the Downloads and Addons sections for the Doom 3 game presence at Moddb and was thinking of uploading stuff there as well...