How hard is blackjacking in 1.04

[Springheel]

We have fixed a bug in 1.04 that was making it harder to blackjack alert guards. Please do not vote based on prior experience, but try blackjacking guards after updating.

 

If you are still finding blackjacking too hard, please be specific about the circumstances. Are you failing to KO guards with helmets? Alert guards? Are you failing primarily when trying to KO moving guards or is it standing guards as well? Have you tried the blackjack trainer?

 

I'd like to get a sense of who is finding blackjacking difficult and why. Obviously if you are watching T2 speedrun videos, and expect to be able to run down a hallway and blackjack a guard on the elbow, you'll be disappointed with TDM blackjacking. But if people have reasonable expectations and are still finding it frustrating, it's something we should probably look at.

[New Horizon]

I have placed a link to the poll on TTLG Spring....just so we're not double posting.

 

Going to collect my thoughts on 1.04 black jacking here a bit later.

 

Edit--

 

After the 1.04 bug was fixed, the blackjacking definitely became better in some instances, but there are still 2 situations where I feel like no matter how careful I am, the ko zone is too small and fails far too often.

 

This happens with 'alert' non-helmeted AI, and 'non-alert' helmeted AI. AI whose ko cones have been reduced to ...I believe..."ko_angle_alert_horiz" "110"

"ko_angle_alert_vert" "80"

 

Our AI are a little more active than Thief AI, they look around more, even while idle.

 

For the non-helmeted guards, an idle AI can look around all they want and ko'ing them is fine since their ko cone is 360. Un-alert, helmeted guards, and alert non-helmeted guards are a completely different story. If I have lined up the perfect ko, and they move slightly...I'm screwed and fail.

 

In my own tests, the following settings have worked out nicely for alert non-helmet, and un-alert helmeted AI.

 

"ko_angle_alert_horiz" "160"

"ko_angle_alert_vert" "110"

 

I still can't ko AI from the front, but if they turn their head, or move suddenly while I'm in mid swing...my ko doesn't fail as often....still, something doesn't feel quite right.

 

The blackjacking is very good overall, but under the two conditions I outlined...it feels a bit too extreme and I completely sympathize with non-ghosters.

 

If you're a ghoster, you're going to find blackjacking pretty easy most of the time but if you play a little more loose, and base your actions upon the situation in front of you...the current settings are a bit too unforgiving.

[Sotha]

Did just a blackjacking spree.

 

I voted 50-50. Sometimes the AI is really easy to knockout. Sometimes it is really difficult. I tested some citywatch guards. (Non helmeted guards are really easy.)

 

It is impossible for me to knockout a moving guard who is walking on stone. The guard hears me and cannot be knocked out.

 

Stationary guards are really easy to knockout, but apparently the AI head position affects things a lot. When the AI head is straight, he is always easy to knockout. If he happens to be looking at something, he won't be knocked out.

 

All in all, the knockouts feel good for me. They should be perilous for moving targets. Stationary targets should be easy and they are unless the AI suddenly moves his head.

 

Feels fine.

[Professor Paul1290]

Blackjacking feels pretty comfortable right now. I usually have an easy time with guards that are standing still.

 

Moving guards are tougher but still reasonable. It carries enough risk that I'm encouraged to be more cautious with them, which I think is a good thing.

 

 

[Aprilsister]

GD it, this (along with Catalyst AI) is an obvious "problem" that needs to be addressed. I'm sure both of these things are turning many people off without much beyond a 2nd look...

 

This poll should be one where people can see who voted what, if ever there was one that needed to be. So that people can see who knows how to blackjack and who doesn't... and then maybe feel free to ask those that do how to rid themselves of frustration.

 

Also, the Catalyst AI thing needs to be mentioned loudly and prominently every where possible as it keeps popping up as a problem for tons of people -- these are just those that bother to bother, btw.

 

There are some easily addressed but fundamentally spirit-killing issues here that are obviously keeping many people from enjoying TDM. There is no other explanation. TDM is great and yet the vast majority of Thief fans are not on board. God damn it...

 

And also also... stop being so nice about T2 FMs. They are not wonderful. They are a sad waste of good building efforts! The Builder would not be pleased to see his followers clutching cludging old tools... 'Tis a shame and a shandra an abomination and anathema!

Edited March 1, 2011 by Aprilsister

[New Horizon]

Please refrain from derailing the topic. We're trying to gather information to find out what is making it difficult for people to blackjack.

 

The Catalyst AI issue is something ATI will have to fix, it affects doom 3 mods outside of TDM and it's out of our control.

 

Back on topic, we need to know if the black jacking difficulties people had were because of the previous bug, or if it was their choice of playstyle combined with the smaller size of an alert AI ko cone? This information will help us.

 

I really don't think it's completely a matter of people not knowing how to black jack the AI, I think it's a combination of more relaxed playstyles and a small ko cone.

 

We also need to know what type of AI you're talking about here. Helmeted or unhelmeted...please be as detailed as possible about the situations.

 

GD it this (along with Catalyst AI) is an obvious "problem" that needs to be addressed. I'm sure both of these things are turning many people off without much beyond a 2nd look...

 

This poll should be one where people can see who voted what, if ever there was one that needed to be. So that people can see who knows how to blackjack and who doesn't... and then maybe feel free to ask those that do how to rid themselves of frustration.

 

Also, the Catalyst AI thing needs to be mentioned loudly and prominently every where possible as it keeps popping up as a problem for tons of people -- these are just those that bother to bother, btw.

 

There are some easily addressed but fundamentally spirit-killing issues here that are obviously keeping many people from enjoying TDM. There is no other explanation. TDM is great and yet the vast majority of Thief fans are not on board. God damn it...

 

And also also... sto being so nice about T2 FMs. They are a sad waste of good Building efforts!

[New Horizon]

Blackjacking feels pretty comfortable right now. I usually have an easy time with guards that are standing still.

 

Moving guards are tougher but still reasonable. It carries enough risk that I'm encouraged to be more cautious with them, which I think is a good thing.

 

What types of guards have you tested so far? Helmeted, unhelmeted or both? I find the ko cone just slightly too narrow for alerted 'un-helmeted' and non-alerted 'helmeted' AI.

 

We need to know the details please.

[Aprilsister]

The Catalyst AI issue is something ATI will have to fix, it affects doom 3 mods outside of TDM and it's out of our control.

 

You are continuing to miss the point though.

 

I'm not asking you to fix CAI. CAI is obviously f'd up (or being f'd up by NVs deals/machinations)... what you guys need to do is make sure that this problem is something that anyone who tries TDM is made aware of as best you can... it needs to be stickied, put at the top of every wiki, readme, installer gui...

 

It just keeps cropping up and you should reaize that for everyone that does bother to investigate by coming here to ask, there are likely many that just turn off. Same with blackjacking. There is really no problem with blackjacking, that's why you can't get a handle on "what it is"... people simply don't understand how it is meant to work. And they too turn off...

 

You don't crack a guy on the helmet (or even the top of his skull) and expect him to be anything but pissed off. And you especially don't do it to a guy who is fully aware that you are there.

 

Blackjacking in TDM works fine. Blackjacking in Thief was what was a joke.

[New Horizon]

You are continuing to miss the point though.

 

The point is that this is not the thread to bring it up. We could sticky it, put it in bright bold letters, and have it painted on the side of a sky scraper...and people would still miss it. It's on the wiki.

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Known_Bugs

 

Blackjacking in TDM works fine.

 

Yes, in most cases it's great,...but this thread is to find out if it can be a tiny bit more forgiving to help ease the frustration for players who are having trouble with it. It's fine for it to be challenging, but it shouldn't be frustrating to the point where it isn't fun. If the bug fix hasn't improved things, we have to find a balance.

[Professor Paul1290]

What types of guards have you tested so far? Helmeted, unhelmeted or both? I find the ko cone just slightly too narrow for alerted 'un-helmeted' and non-alerted 'helmeted' AI.

 

We need to know the details please.

 

I'm mostly going off what has occured as I've been playing recently using 1.04. I haven't tried looking out for it intentionally.

 

Unless it's an obviously easy KO (unhelmeted, non-alerted, stationary) I always try to blackjack from directly behind, so I haven't seen the effects of the cone that much.

However I did notice that trying to blackjack from above or below, such as when standing on something, can be bit tricky. There was an AI in The Beleaguered Fence that gave me a couple quick-loads worth of trouble with this and I think he was helmeted.

[Aprilsister]

The point is that this is not the thread to bring it up. We could sticky it, put it in bright bold letters, and have it painted on the side of a sky scraper...and people would still miss it. It's on the wiki.

 

I have made 4 points here -- all of which address the larger issue that is at work.

 

There is something wrong with the way these underlying issues are being addressed -- TDM is clearly the best thing going in the long-lived Thief world/community, and yet it is not as correspondingly popular -- and to say (in an oh so pomo way) that any heightened effort to underline, embolden, or otherwise make prominent the solution to an ever-occurring problem is futile? Is just being argumentative.

 

I cannot imagine that you think I'm not on your side and that I'm seriously trying to derail efforts to get at what is wrong.

 

The 4 points I've made are legitimate. They all address this thread's intent.

 

1. The poll, if ever there was a poll that should be, is one should let people see who has figured out how to blackjack.

 

2. There is really not a problem with blackjacking -- the problem is with the old way, where you could whack a guy on the fucking ankle and it "worked"...

 

EG:

However I did notice that trying to blackjack from above or below, such as when standing on something, can be bit tricky.

 

Of course it can be tricky. It should be tricky done that way.

 

3 & 4. I would encourage you guys to be more assertive about the solutions to "problems" (like blackjacking and CAI-SNAFU) that are not problems with TDM -- either technically or "techiniquecally"...

 

...

 

Anyway I will leave it there as sometimes I get a bit abrupt (but sometimes there is a bit of the obtuse and argumentative in the discussion too, and it's not me... )

[New Horizon]

This is not the appropriate thread for your off topic suggestions. They're not going to get the proper attention they deserve in this thread.

 

There WAS a problem with blackjacking since the release of the mod...and all this time we told people they were likely at fault, when they probably weren't. Now the bug has been fixed, so we need feedback to make sure the bug fix removes the technical issues some were reporting....and it was a technical issue.

 

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but it would be irresponsible of us to ignore our user base when they were actually right about something being off with the system.

[ungoliant]

voted 50-50. this is normally a subject that embarrasses me, as i consider myself to be pretty good at the whole stealth thing, and bj fail/reload/restart/reload/restart infuriates me. But since you're looking for feedback, I'll speak my piece. I admit I don't know the mechanics of blackjacking, but then again, quite frankly I don't want to know. I like to work intuitively as a guy coming up behind another guy with a blunt object. Relying on working the game mechanics to get good results is immersion breaking to me. I think the general attitude of this thread towards working on a solution is appropriate.

 

The correct method should not be to say things like "It's easy, just make sure you aim at this certain angle at the base of the neck and make sure to adjust your aim 10% if target adjusts head angle by 30 degrees", but rather gain feedback of "too hard", "too easy", and keep adjusting mechanics until a happy medium is obtained.

 

At this point 1.04, some things are improved, but unless I'm in a bind, or progress is nigh impossible or too time-consuming, my mentality is "helmeted guards are invincible, do not engage" (which is not a bad thing!). But still, I don't think i've ever been able to blackjack a guard on alert 3... ever. This is the primary BJ issue 3000% more important than all other issues to me. I should not have to hide in a corner because a guy is looking around the room for a noise he heard, the hell with that. My vote is work on this. Helmeted guards can really be 100% BJ invincible for all i care compared to this issue.

 

Keep up the good work, guys

[Berny]

Now BJ seems quite easy - in the dark I can BJ a guard by just hitting him in his face (haha). Also from behind it's easy (but just without helmets)

 

But on stone I can't BJ a guard with a helmet - I tried it almost 20 times (without moss-arrow)

 

 

[fllood]

my mentality is "helmeted guards are invincible, do not engage" (which is not a bad thing!).

Helmeted guards can really be 100% BJ invincible

Keep up the good work, guys

 

+1

 

I have fun blackjacking unhelmet guards while exploring. But like ungoliant I like helmet guards be very hard to blackjack - if possible at all!

 

A suggestion to address knowing/learnig the "proper" blackjack handling:

 

What about including a small blackjack room in the training mission - instead of the seperate Blackjack Training map - right from the start? Add the different kind of AI and visually highlight the area to hit on that AI (only in the training mission of course!!).

... That way people immidiatly could learn and train the differences in blackjacking different AI's and regards to Thief.

[Professor Paul1290]

After trying it a few times with the Blackjack Trainer I'm starting to see where trying to blackjack helmeted AI can be rather frustrating at times.

 

I do feel like I need ideal conditions to reliably blackjack helmeted AI. If the AI starts looking even only slightly off to the side or goes up and down a step it's enough reason for me step back and abort. I don't think this is a bad thing by itself. I think the helmeted AI should be more risky to attempt using the blackjack on to contrast them with the non-helmeted guys. Given ideal conditions (stationary, looking straight, same elevation) I can successfully blackjack them every time.

 

Personally I'm pretty comfortable with the way it is now, but I can see how some people can find this extremely annoying.

If you don't have a pretty good sense of where the center of your screen is then trying to blackjack a helmeted AI seems like it can easily become very unreliable.

 

I usually imagine a line going up from the light gem and left from the top of the blackjack and use the point where they would cross in the middle to aim at about the base of the neck and that seems to work pretty well.

 

 

Also, I can confirm that my knee-jerk reflex when a blackjacking attempt fails (which consists of repeating blackjacking the AI in the face while jumping up and down screaming AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!) is not a very effective method of self defense.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Professor Paul1290

[New Horizon]

Also, I can confirm that my knee-jerk reflex when a blackjacking attempt fails (which consists of repeating blackjacking the AI in the face while jumping up and down screaming AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!) is not a very effective method of self defense.

 

[Springheel]

which consists of repeating blackjacking the AI in the face while jumping up and down screaming AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!) is not a very effective method of self defense.

 

I do that too...against bare-headed guards it occasionally works!

[lost_soul]

It generally works very well for me now as long as I follow the rules.

 

Aim for the head.

Don't try it if the guard is in full-alert or attacking.

Don't try and "run up" to AIs and blackjack them. This always bothered me in Thief because it was SOOO unrealistic.

Don't try it on guards with full head-gear.

[jaxa]

It generally works very well for me now as long as I follow the rules.

 

Aim for the head.

Don't try it if the guard is in full-alert or attacking.

Don't try and "run up" to AIs and blackjack them. This always bothered me in Thief because it was SOOO unrealistic.

Don't try it on guards with full head-gear.

 

Rule 3 is a tough habit to break I think. So is rule 4 because I don't bother to tell the difference mostly. Rule 2 gets broken after I try the frantic afterjacking that Prof. Paul mentioned.

 

As for Rule 1, PROOOOPOSSSTTEERRROOOOUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I should load up a mission and try flying flapblackjacks.

Edited March 2, 2011 by jaxa

[Berny]

A suggestion to address knowing/learnig the "proper" blackjack handling:

 

What about including a small blackjack room in the training mission - instead of the seperate Blackjack Training map - right from the start? Add the different kind of AI and visually highlight the area to hit on that AI (only in the training mission of course!!).

... That way people immidiatly could learn and train the differences in blackjacking different AI's and regards to Thief.

signed

 

 

 

[demagogue]

Somewhere between 50-50 & Not Difficult, but closer to Not Difficult so made that my vote.

 

Usually when it fails I can see why ... it's at a weird angle or position. So it's just a matter of not committing until you really have it right. But sometimes you're under time-pressure and you have to just go for it and hope it's close enough. I think it works okay for the game. It makes it a trade-off between KOing him and taking the time to line it up properly. But on occasion I don't see why I didn't get a clean KO and I really wanted to; these are the situations you'd want to minimize, though this may admittedly be somewhat context-sensitive and hard to pin down generally.

[New Horizon]

But on occasion I don't see why I didn't get a clean KO and I really wanted to; these are the situations you'd want to minimize, though this may admittedly be somewhat context-sensitive and hard to pin down generally.

 

Actually, I think I've found the reason for those situations.

[fllood]

Tested in 1.04 now. First let me tell you I really suck in knocking out AI's in Thief ... also I never ever did or do a "run up" to AI and blackjack. I'm a Thief and not being called Sam by name ;-)

 

In TDM on stone sturface it's not always easy to approach unheard. Which is absolutly fine and works as it should. that's what grass, carpets and thief tools are for. But if detected I can knockdown every Unhelmet Guard with just a quick hit on his head regardless which side facing. Even if he is facing me. Or worse just simply hitting the mouse button mindlessly a few times which also prevents the AI having any chance to even strike and hurt me.

IIRC I couldn't that in such way in 1.03. For game mechanics I think it's not a plus being able to knock out unhelmet guards with no risk being discovered while trying to do so.

 

ah and yes, Helmet guards are about 1/3 success for me to both approach safely and knockout. that's being absolutly OK. in my opinion helmet guards should be hard to knockdown (if able to at all) !

 

A question:

 

Is it static set in TDM or up to the mapper how sensitive the AI's are aware of player noises and sight distance on each difficult level? The same question for the differences in the AI awareness level between the different AI types??

[New Horizon]

First let me tell you I really suck in knocking out AI's in Thief ... also I never ever did or do a "run up" to AI and blackjack.

 

In thief 1 and 2, players could knock an AI out by hitting them anywhere on their body....including their feet. That's not even remotely possible in TDM. I'm not sure why you would have had trouble with this. I'm assuming you have played Thief 1,2 and are not simply talking about Thief 3?

 

But if detected I can knockdown every Unhelmet Guard with just a quick hit on his head regardless which side facing. Even if he is facing me.

 

Un-helmeted guards are meant to be easier. Their heads are unprotected. What do you mean when you say you've been detected? Being 'detected' is not the same as the AI being on 'high alert'.

 

An AI can comment about hearing something, or thinking they saw something, but will not be on 'high alert' until they pull out their weapon.

 

When an AI with no helmet pulls out their weapon, they are mainly blackjackable from behind...although a stray hit might get through from time to time.

 

When an AI wearing a helmet pulls out their weapon, they become immune from all angles.

 

IIRC I couldn't that in such way in 1.03. For game mechanics I think it's not a plus being able to knock out unhelmet guards with no risk being discovered while trying to do so.

 

The only difference between 1.03 and 1.04 is that AI become harder to blackjack at the correct alert level now. Versions 1.03 and earlier of TDM had AI becoming harder to blackjack 1 level before they pulled out their weapon, which meant the player had no visual clue to indicate the AI were now either harder to blackjack / or in the case of helmeted guards 'immune'.