Is TDM a Game?

[Springheel]

If an author makes a map that doesn't do several defining things people think of when thinking about TDM, is it still TDM?

 

That's an interesting question. I suspect that it depends on the number of changes. Something like "The Swing" doesn't have many things that are associated with TDM (including AI), yet I would argue that it still qualifies. At a certain point though, the line would be crossed and you'd really be playing something different. It's going to be an awfully fuzzy line though.

 

I hate it when people call FMs "Thief" and claim to have played Thief for years when they haven't actually played an LGS or ISA map for most of those years.

 

Why? They are playing the game "Thief", (unless they're only playing really weird FMs) whether they're playing the official missions or not. You could argue that they're not playing the "Thief" narrative, but that's separate from the game. I would see it like somoene saying that they're watching "Star Wars" when they're actually watching the Clone Wars series instead of the movies. It's still an accurate description of what they're going, even though it's not the original.

[Viktoria]

What were you trying to say here?

I'm saying I'm obviously not the only person who is confused as to whether TDM is a game (proper) - hence the FAQs asking/answering that very question... "Is it a game?" and this thread, "Is TDM a game?"

The fact that's its called "mod" doesn't help I guess and a new name (I suggested "The Dark M0od" ) might be a good idea.

 

Oh, okay cool, go put "TDM Fan Missions" into the poll, then.

Firstly, its not my poll so I can't edit it. I believe OP can't do so either because there is a short time limit for creating and editing polls.

Secondly, each fan mission is the work of the respective creator(s) and therefore all differ in content and quality.

I would have to consider each individually in order to score their value fairly.

[Airship Ballet]

Granted, but I don't actually care about the poll; I was just using it to try to get you to explain yourself. I wouldn't class the missions as their own games at all, in the same sense I wouldn't class each mission in Thief 1, 2, 3 or 4 as its own game. It's all part of the greater property, and Alberic's Curse isn't a standalone work in the same sense that Lord Bafford's Manor isn't. If you consider TDM to be a "platform", then by that logic you'd have to say the same for Thief 1. If your argument then would be that T1 is a finished game and TDM ships with far less content already installed, it's just a very short game. If you'd then say that T1 is finished and TDM is on-going, then it's a WIP game. If a game runs off dev-created content for a year and then has its level creator released to the public, would you then say it's not a game anymore?

[Springheel]

I'm saying I'm obviously not the only person who is confused as to whether TDM is a game (proper) - hence the FAQs asking/answering that very question.

 

Yes. there might be people who are confused, which is why the FAQ is there. That's one thing. But even after having it explained, you are sticking to your claim that it is NOT a game. That's something completely different.

 

That's not the mark of someone who is confused, that's the mark of someone who has firm reasons for their opinion. Yet when asked what those reasons are, you seem to have nothing to offer but pointing to the fact that people ask questions.

 

Another question on the FAQ is, "Can I put Thief vocals in my mission?". By your reasoning, that is all the evidence I need to stick to my claim that yes, I CAN do that, even though the FAQ states otherwise.

[Viktoria]

Its not a claim, its just my personal view.

I can't offer up any technical reasons for my pov... any more than I can tell you about what the engine is doing under the bonnet of my sportscar. I just love to drive her.

I just don't view TDM as a game proper.... I only see the fan mission experience as the actual game part, if you like, because that is the part I get to play.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[New Horizon]

Its not a claim, its just my personal view.

I can't offer up any technical reasons for my pov... any more than I can tell you about what the engine is doing under the bonnet of my sportscar. I just love to drive her.

I just don't view TDM as a game proper.... I only see the fan mission experience as the actual game part, if you like, because that is the part I get to play.

 

Then that means Thief is not a game proper, nor dishonored, or anything else, because all games are simply maps running on a 'game engine'. Delete your maps folder in Thief 2014 and see what happens. That's really the best way I can explain it. The only difference is how the content is delivered. With TDM, the user selects which maps to play while others just come with the maps packaged. The only difference between the two is that you, the player, have a choice with TDM and you don't with a more traditional pre-packaged option. A difference in delivery system doesn't change the core of what a thing is.

 

For the record, I'm not trying to change your mind so much as I am attempting to better inform you so that perhaps you might understand why the things you are pointing out are true of all games.

[Airship Ballet]

The fan mission experience is TDM and TDM is the fan mission experience. What you're essentially saying there is that you class fan missions as the game, and that because TDM has menus that let you choose between them, it's not a game as a whole. You wouldn't class TDM as a game because it has menus and a level select? You'd rather there was no meta game and that the FMs' method of delivery was just the map information and all the resources used in creating it packed into folders with its own titular binary? Each FM would be its own standalone game and have to avoid mentioning the others in order to avoid having its game status revoked. It's illogical and you know it.

 

I have to agree that you seem to be just refusing to acknowledge it's a game for some other reason I don't care to know about. There's logic in some things you're saying, such as each FM having to be considered on its own because there's so much diversity in the methods and the imaginations of the community's mappers. When it comes to classifying TDM, you turn uncharacteristically illogical and state it's just your view on the matter like it's a steadfast thing that isn't going to change. You seem sensible enough to listen to reason and justify yourself in every other respect, just not when it comes to classifying TDM, for some reason that, like I said, I'm not interested in.

[Viktoria]

I'm not refusing to acknowledge that its a game if that is what it is.... its just in that particular poll, I couldn't view it as a game - at least not on-par with the other options given.

Dishonored and Thief have characters and a story and I can play through from beginning to end.

My judgement of TDM would be down to what missions I loaded up and played.... so that is why I could only vote on the missions themselves.

Admittedly, I'm not that experienced with TDM. I have only played one mission to date as I find myself addicted to the T1, TG and T2 fan missions.

[Airship Ballet]

My judgement of TDM would be down to what missions I loaded up and played...

 

Like you said, you haven't played them all. I imagine if you did you'd be more inclined to judge it as a whole. It has its high points and its low points, just as any game would. Probably not wise to make an assertion that absolute with essentially zero knowledge of it.

 

"What do you think about Dark Souls 2?"

"I don't like it."

"Oh yeah? Why's that?"

"Haven't played it."

[Viktoria]

I haven't played them all... but I have played it.

[New Horizon]

You have played approximately 1.25% of the available content. I suspect a good number of the TDM team have logged more time in Thief 2014 than you have in TDM.

[Viktoria]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Airship Ballet]

Played a mission. By your definition they're all different and you need to play them all to get a feel for TDM as a whole, yet you've played one and feel it's sufficient to pass judgment on it as a whole. Am I missing a loophole or is that just hypocritical of you?

[Viktoria]

I need to play each mission in order to vote for them in a poll.

 

Well, I did play one or two other TDM missions way back in the day and I wasn't that impressed... I went back to the T1/2 missions.

It was the early days though. If I recall, control was slow and clunky and I don't think there were any rope arrows then.

[New Horizon]

[Airship Ballet]

I need to play each mission in order to vote for them in a poll.

 

But you don't to mentally disqualify it from it?

 

Obviously I know about Wiki... but I like to do more than just read about a game and then form an opinion.

If I am to give an opinion that's worth any salt; I like it to be an educated one based on personal experience.

 

I'd like you to do that too.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Airship Ballet

[Viktoria]

But you don't to mentally disqualify it from it?

 

 

Obviously I know about Wiki... but I like to do more than just read about a game and then form an opinion.

If I am to give an opinion that's worth any salt; I like it to be an educated one based on personal experience.

 

 

 

That quote discusses a game I have never heard of or played.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Viktoria]

But you don't to mentally disqualify it from it?

I've explained the reasons for disqualifying in that particular poll, I don't see it as a game compared to the other options.

[New Horizon]

I think we're done here folks.

[Vae]

I've explained the reasons for disqualifying in that particular poll, I don't see it as a game compared to the other options.

 

Yet, objectively TDM is a qualified game...so you've lost the arguement. This is a fact not an opinion.

 

Now that your ignorance has been ruled out, all that is left is your confirmed vested interest, for everyone to see.

 

I think we're done here folks.

 

We were done a long time ago...

Edited March 20, 2014 by Vae

[Viktoria]

I think we're done here folks.

That's fine.

Sorry for that double-post earlier... I had to respond to an edit.

[Airship Ballet]

I don't think there's anything more to be said once you play the personal opinion card and stick to it through everything. You were welcome to discuss it but you just kept preaching personal opinion and changed your approach rather than justifying yourself every time you were contested. You've barely touched TDM and find it almost impossible to respond progressively to others because it's just your personal opinion and, naturally, it's not going to change based on what somebody else on the internet has to say if you're not willing to properly process it. It's that simple, man, and when it comes down to it you're not nearly informed enough to be making swooping statements like you did. You can argue semantics for days but in the end it's your (and Master Taffer's) opinion against mine, and I think a fair few others. I don't quite know why you're both hell-bent on thinking like that, but you are. Claiming that it's no reflection on TDM's validity to mentally exclude it from a poll because it doesn't square up to contemporary competition is oxymoronic, but then again I think it's more than a coincidence that you're both mods over there and share the same illogical opinion. I don't know, I could just be being cynical about it, but I don't believe in coinkydink.

[New Horizon]

Sorry for that double-post earlier... I had to respond to an edit.

 

Eh, that's no biggie.

[Viktoria]

EDIT: to AB

 

It is my personal opinion though. I may have barely touched TDM, but I have touched it.

As for being a mod; its irrelevant. Plenty of other people share the same view as mine and they're not mods. Take from it what you will.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Springheel]

Its not a claim, its just my personal view.

 

When you say, "X is not Y" that is a claim. When you say, "I personally view X as not Y" that is a personal view. You've done both, but I was addressing the claim.

 

 

I can't offer up any technical reasons for my pov...

 

...

 

 

I just don't view TDM as a game proper.

 

Which is the point where reasonable people stop discussing it with you. You've basically acknowledged that you can't defend your position, but are going to keep holding it anyway. If you wonder why some people then look for other motivations, that's why.