Is TDM a Game?

[Goldwell]

Oh boy, I haven't cringed and laughed so much since I last read a creationism vs science discussion.

 

I was prepared to launch into a full-scale rant involving linguistic constructivism, objectivity, subjectivity and debate etiquette, but pretty much all has been said.

 

To say TDM isn't a game in the context of this poll is a bit like saying "gravity in the context of falling on your face is more like a stumbling aid".

 

Here, I'll offer an easy alternative of putting it without causing a 20 page lolocaust: "I don't enjoy games without continuous storyline as much, so I voted for xy".

 

I was hoping for ZylonBane to make a really fun cameo, but his head probably aspolded after the first two pages and he lies somewhere incapacitated and in dire need for help.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2014 by Goldwell

[Airship Ballet]

his head probably aspolded after the first two pages and he lies somewhere incapacitated and in dire need for help.

 

Indubitably

[demagogue]

Pretty sure ZB would have been taken out by a syntax error.

[AluminumHaste]

ZB was on his way, but tripped over his own ego and dynamited.

[Bikerdude]

ZB was on his way, but tripped over his own ego and dynamited.

Yeah Im sure most of would rather that imbecilic troll along with a few others of the same calibre stay over on CT where they belong.

[Springheel]

For fuck's sake, people, what part of "no personal attacks" is hard to understand?

[Araneidae]

This thread has become a bit nasty, am wishing there was a "plonk" button for threads!

[AluminumHaste]

My bad

[Airship Ballet]

That /a/narchist gif is mesmerizing. Every loop I watch I discover a new layer of loathing I didn't know I was capable of.

[sparhawk]

Dishonored and Thief have characters and a story and I can play through from beginning to end.

My judgement of TDM would be down to what missions I loaded up and played.... so that is why I could only vote on the missions themselves.

 

Is Minecraft a game?

[Deadlove]

Oh boy, I haven't cringed and laughed so much since I last read a creationism vs science discussion.

 

I was prepared to launch into a full-scale rant involving linguistic constructivism, objectivity, subjectivity and debate etiquette, but pretty much all has been said.

 

To say TDM isn't a game in the context of this poll is a bit like saying "gravity in the context of falling on your face is more like a stumbling aid".

 

Here, I'll offer an easy alternative of putting it without causing a 20 page lolocaust: "I don't enjoy games without continuous storyline as much, so I voted for xy".

 

I was hoping for ZylonBane to make a really fun cameo, but his head probably aspolded after the first two pages and he lies somewhere incapacitated and in dire need for help.

 

He said lolocaust. I claim copyright to that word. :-) Love it!

[Dunedain]

Hmm... it's a good question. I can see how the lack of an official story campaign could have it seen as only a means to make Thief fan missions (not that that is a bad thing), as opposed to, in addition to that very important role, also a game proper. But once the official campaign comes out, that will end all debate, at that point it's a game for sure; on top of being a great total conversion mod for making the ultimate Thief fan missions.

[Springheel]

the official campaign comes out

 

There is no "official" campaign, and I've yet to hear a good argument for why a campaign makes it any more of a game than the two official missions already released.

[Dunedain]

Well, I'm guessing that the reason some think this is that pretty much any game that comes out has some kind of a series of official connected story missions, quests, etc. to play through (assuming the game isn't a multi-player only game, like Unreal Tournament or something like that). In any case, once it does come out, I don't see how anyone can say at that point that in addition to being a great mod (one of the very best ever made by fans, for sure) that you can make excellent Thief fan missions with, it's not also a game in and of itself.

[Vae]

There is no "official" campaign, and I've yet to hear a good argument for why a campaign makes it any more of a game than the two official missions already released.

 

Again, there isn't any rational basis for saying "TDM isn't a game"...which is why you will never hear a good argument for it.

 

A "campaign" is an optional design construct for a game...not a prerequisite for the existence of a game.

[SeriousToni]

Stop it guys - finally!

[HAL-Fan]

Maybe I'll be too personal from a "newbie" point of view: I guess a cannot explicitly appreciate enough how much FUN The Dark Mod broght me. You guys here are doing a good work and the quality of TDM is rising higher and higher and I don't mean only the constant process of finding bugs and their removal, nicer graphics but also the quality of levels, not to mention the effort to create campain projects (Wlliam Steele, Thomas Porter, Crucible of Omens in development and so on). And doing this just because somebody wants to? That is simply great! I never played boring mission I downloaded from here and that is not a thing that one can say about every thief-like mission that is availble. I cannot care even less whether for somebody TDM is a game or not, becase form evaluating the fun it brought me, well, it is above many of the official products.

[bassmanret]

LOL! I've been absent from all things TDM for quite a while, but am revisiting now, and found this topic hilarious!

 

Not that anyone should care, but I take TDM missions individually; Some I like, some I don't. The only problem I have with TDM is that it's promoters seem to want to shove it down the throats of the TTLG Fan Mission community. Don't get me wrong, I do like some TDM missions, but they are completely different games and as such do not belong in the TTLG Fan Mission forums in the same way that Hitman, Dishonored, and Splinter Cell games do not belong. Not that I'm bitter or "nerd-ragey" about it or anything, it's just a little annoying and gives a bit a negativity for the TDM that otherwise would not be there.

 

I should probably also state that I'm not in the least bit a lover of all things TTLG. The Thief 4 hatred there has, in my opinion, gone so very far beyond reason that I'm sickened by it, and what used to be a daily, enjoyable forum to browse has become a site I very rarely visit. The only sanity left there is still the Thief Fan Missions forum, but in my opinion, the quality of FMs there has fallen drastically in recent years, so I rarely visit that forum either. Maybe I'm just getting grumpy in my old age, but I do still check for new TDM missions, and play them when I can. I've got some catching up to do now.

Edited July 13, 2014 by bassmanret

[Springheel]

they are completely different games and as such do not belong in the TTLG Fan Mission forums in the same way that Hitman, Dishonored, and Splinter Cell games do not belong.

 

Some might argue that TDM is closer to Thief 1/2 than nuThief is, and is likely more relevant to the TTLG folks than Hitman or even Dishonored.

 

But thanks for sharing the things you find annoying.

[bassmanret]

Some might argue that TDM is closer to Thief 1/2 than nuThief is, and is likely more relevant to the TTLG folks than Hitman or even Dishonored.

 

But thanks for sharing the things you find annoying.

 

...??... um, you're welcome...?? (sigh) I'm sure no snark was intended, so I'm very much looking forward to discussing many Dark Mod topics with the friendly folks in these forums. Have a nice day. [tip-toes out of forum]

[New Horizon]

The only problem I have with TDM is that it's promoters seem to want to shove it down the throats of the TTLG Fan Mission community.

 

About that.

 

It was the administration at TTLG who chose to allow TDM missions to be announced in the Thief FM forums. It's not like TDM barged in took over the FM's forum...that's where they want us to do it. Initially, the TDM team asked to have our own forum on TTLG...so even though they didn't want to , they created one for us. After several months, it became clear that the separate forum was a poor idea. Players at TTLG were expecting to find TDM missions in the FM forum and never noticed that a new TDM forum was even there. There was two, maybe three people who were vehemently opposed to TDM missions sharing the Thief FM forum but the rest of the users there supported us and felt TDM missions belonged there, so the TTLG admins merged us back in.

[Airship Ballet]

I do like some TDM missions, but they are completely different games and as such do not belong in the TTLG Fan Mission forums in the same way that Hitman, Dishonored, and Splinter Cell games do not belong.

 

In what way and on what planet is TDM a completely different game to Thief?

[bassmanret]

Yikes, I truly did not intend to start any arguments, and definitely did not mean any disrespect or insult to TDM. Please disregard any/all of my comments if they offended anyone with my apologies. Rereading, I do see that "shove it down the throats" was much stronger than I intended, and was a very poor choice of words.

Edited July 13, 2014 by bassmanret

[Sotha]

Yikes, I truly did not intend to start any arguments, and definitely did not mean any disrespect or insult to TDM. Please disregard any/all of my comments if they offended anyone with my apologies. Rereading, I do see that "shove it down the throats" was much stronger than I intended, and was a very poor choice of words.

 

This thread is one of the most volatile threads around this forum. Every time I see a new post here, I think "Uh oh, here we go again," and I have to see what it is all about.

 

I suppose it is good to have an emergency system for occasional steam venting.

 

Just chill and enjoy the forums!

[Antsan]

After that last post I almost feel bad for posting. Almost, not quite.

 

The Dark Mod is a game, but just barely. The same goes for any other stealth game.

Why?

As Springheel says, a game consists of rules, an end condition and a measure for how well you did. Most modern games do have these things, but in most instances the rules are (thanks to physics engines, real time and the likes) very ill-defined. I feel this goes to the point where calling the physics "rules" is a bit far-fetched.

Of course this also goes for other programs that are called games, like Counter Strike, TES [insert roman number here], Diablo, Dwarf Fortress or almost anything interactive.

Naturally this is only nitpicking and doesn't touch the linked poll in the slightest. With the general gist of what a game is given there, TDM is a game, just as much as Thi4f or Dishonored is.

 

I think the following is very poor form:

We aren't a commercial project...

Exactly my reasoning, yes.

(A quote of Viktoria in the linked thread, explaining why TDM isn't a proper game)

I almost exclusively play non-commercial games. I think the only commercial games I played in the last 5 years must be Bioshock, Portal 2 and Amnesia. Maybe I am forgetting half of the ones I actually played, but...

compared to that my list of games I played is rather extensive and most of the games on there are just now getting some distantly related commercial cousins: Dungeon Crawl, Brogue, Dwarf Fortress, Sword In Hand, ZombieRL, God Of Change... Those are just games I played in the last few months. Saying a game isn't a proper game because it isn't commercial (and that is exactly what she did there, there's just no way around it) is highly disrespectful to the developers who pour their very soul into something that goes way beyond what you'd be able to find in any commercial game.