Is TDM a Game?

[New Horizon]

It is my personal opinion though.

 

One should still aspire for a personal opinion to be informed though, and that's why I think people here who have been trying to help inform you are so taken aback by your opinion.

[Viktoria]

You've basically acknowledged that you can't defend your position, but are going to keep holding it anyway. If you wonder why some people then look for other motivations, that's why.

I didn't come here to "defend" any position though... just to explain why I excluded TDM from that poll... and, yeah, I stand by all the reasons I stated.

People can choose to agree or disagree; that's fine. I expected as much on this forum, obviously.

[Xarg]

I didn't come here to "defend" any position though... just to explain why I excluded TDM from that poll... and, yeah, I stand by all the reasons I stated.

People can choose to agree or disagree; that's fine. I expected as much on this forum, obviously.

 

What, you wouldn't expect to be called out for claiming the sky was orange, because you walked outside during a sunset, at the EM boards?

[Viktoria]

One should still aspire for a personal opinion to be informed though

Why is not informed; given the reasons I stated when I voted?

TDM isn't a game to me; but even if I thought it was a "game" at the time of voting, I would still not have voted for it because I would only be able to judge it based on particular missions.

[Viktoria]

What, you wouldn't expect to be called out for claiming the sky was orange, because you walked outside during a sunset, at the EM boards?

Yes, I expect to hear whatever people wish to say. That's what happens on forums and, yes, I'd expect to be called out more here. That's fine.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Xarg]

Yes, I expect to hear whatever people wish to say. That's what happens on forums and, yes, I'd expect to be called out more here. That's fine.

 

So what you're saying is, people are less critical over there, even if they're reading something they disagree with, for whatever reasons? The first half of what you typed is interesting, because it doesn't really seem to relate to what you've quoted, and I suspect that part was the edit.

[Vae]

TDM isn't a game to me

 

Objectively, TDM is a game...It's not a subjective evaluation based on personal experience.

 

But then again, discovering what is true, is not your primary motivation.

 

What, you wouldn't expect to be called out for claiming the sky was orange, because you walked outside during a sunset, at the EM boards?

 

No...Because she would give them a ToU violation penalty or ban them.

 

This kind of "messaging control" is what she is used to.

[New Horizon]

Why is not informed; given the reasons I stated when I voted?

TDM isn't a game to me; but even if I thought it was a "game" at the time of voting, I would still not have voted for it because I would only be able to judge it based on particular missions.

 

Nobody cares which way you voted though.

 

You've been given a 'ton' of information as to why TDM is a game. It's not a this vs that thing, it's simply a matter of seeing what is being pointed out to you. TDM, Dishonored and Thief all have the same setup under the hood. Game Engine + Maps. Every game packages their maps and loads them a little differently....yet they're all games. Our maps are stored on a server so players choose which ones they want to play. After that, they are loaded into the game engine and played just like every game out there.

[Airship Ballet]

Forums are more for discussing things than presenting opinions in glass boxes and mutually respecting them. There's not a whole lot of strength to the claim that it would be less well-received here than anywhere else, given the average maturity of the people who frequent it. Most everybody is able to consider the merits of others' opinions and often alter their own based off the discussion if it's decent enough. If you only came here to copy/paste your opinion at every response with the most inoffensive attitude possible, why did you bother? It's an attitude really befitting or a lawyer or a politician. Doesn't hurt to actually clash opinions a little.

[Viktoria]

So what you're saying is, people are less critical over there, even if they're reading something they disagree with, for whatever reasons? The first half of what you typed is interesting, because it doesn't really seem to relate to what you've quoted, and I suspect that part was the edit.

 

I don't believe people are less critical over there. Have you read the thread?

The edit I made added the words "to hear" into my sentence.

 

Nobody cares which way you voted though.

 

You've been given a 'ton' of information as to why TDM is a game. It's not a this vs that thing, it's simply a matter of seeing what is being pointed out to you. TDM, Dishonored and Thief all have the same setup under the hood. Game Engine + Maps. Every game packages their maps and loads them a little differently....yet they're all games. Our maps are stored on a server so players choose which ones they want to play. After that, they are loaded into the game engine and played just like every game out there.

 

I'm not saying they care which way I voted. It was the nonsense reasons given for me apparently voting the way I did.

Again, all this information comes after the fact and I'm fine agreeing TDM is a game. But for the purpose of that poll, its impossible to vote for it because "it", for me, would depend on the missions played.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Xarg]

Then wouldn't it make sense to play more than one mission to give yourself a better feeling and understanding of how it plays, before offering your vote in that poll? I'm sure you got past more than just the first level in T4 before casting your vote, which is unfair on TDM. If you want to make the campaign/protagonist/story argument, the Thomas Porter series has been finished and there's a list kicking around somewhere about what order to play them in, that would give you a campaign, wouldn't it?

[Viktoria]

Then wouldn't it make sense to play more than one mission to give yourself a better feeling and understanding of how it plays, before offering your vote in that poll? I'm sure you got past more than just the first level in T4 before casting your vote, which is unfair on TDM.

I have played more than one. I played a couple back in the day but wasn't that impressed so went back to T1/T2 missions using Darkloader/Garrettloader. So I think my vote is fair.

I certainly would like to play one of the more recent missions. Any recommendations? Something close to the first two games would suit me... and preferably with a thieve's highway.

[Vae]

Once the rat is trapped, it will say anything to try and get out of the cage.

[Deadlove]

I have played more than one. I played a couple back in the day but wasn't that impressed so went back to T1/T2 missions using Darkloader/Garrettloader. So I think my vote is fair.

I certainly would like to play one of the more recent missions. Any recommendations? Something close to the first two games would suit me... and preferably with a thieve's highway.

 

Play WS2 - Home Again

 

It's a thieves highway, lengthy, very gorgeous art, and fantastic gameplay. To speak plainly, the missions that TDM have now put to shame the earlier missions. When the game was first started, there wasn't the cumulative knowledge that's been gained over the years, by both the veteran mappers, and also now that knowledge can be more freely shared (since it has a history of what works best) and the new mappers are highly benefiting and even their maps are gold compared to the early stuff. Just my two cents.

[Springheel]

But for the purpose of that poll, its impossible to vote for it because "it", for me, would depend on the missions played.

 

Absolutely fine. I'm not sure anyone here actually cares how anyone voted in that poll. I think they DO wonder about the reasons why someone would maintain that TDM doesn't fit the definition of "game". That's all.

 

(I don't even care if someone doesn't think TDM fits the definition of "game", as long as they can present a coherent and consistent definition.)

 

 

I certainly would like to play one of the more recent missions. Any recommendations?

 

I would highly recommend Grayman's series, starting with In the North. The second in the series is a Thieves' highway type, but I'd recommend playing them in order. In the North has one of the "Thiefiest" vibes, IMO.

[Viktoria]

Absolutely fine. I'm not sure anyone here actually cares how anyone voted in that poll. I think they DO wonder about the reasons why someone would maintain that TDM doesn't fit the definition of "game". That's all.

(I don't even care if someone doesn't think TDM fits the definition of "game", as long as they can present a coherent and consistent definition.)

Yeah, I get you. I can't explain any more than I have. If I've failed miserably; so be it.

 

 

I would highly recommend Grayman's series, starting with In the North. The second in the series is a Thieves' highway type, but I'd recommend playing them in order. In the North has one of the "Thiefiest" vibes, IMO.

Play WS2 - Home Again

It's a thieves highway, lengthy, very gorgeous art, and fantastic gameplay. To speak plainly, the missions that TDM have now put to shame the earlier missions. When the game was first started, there wasn't the cumulative knowledge that's been gained over the years, by both the veteran mappers, and also now that knowledge can be more freely shared (since it has a history of what works best) and the new mappers are highly benefiting and even their maps are gold compared to the early stuff. Just my two cents.

Thank you both very much... sounds good. Decisions. Decisions.

I've yet to finish Thief and I'm off to London for a few days soon but I'm sure I'll be free to fire one of them up not long after.

 

PS.

Regarding the person here who insists on creating a nuisance of himself with his usual hyperbole by implying that I lie, people only need to go and check old fan mission threads.

I recall asking someone (NH perhaps?) about problems with clunky mechanics and lack of rope arrow. I also remember one mission where a rope arrow finally featured (early days again)... but it kept sticking and couldn't be retrieved. Something like that.

Sorry I can't remember the exact details... but I know that history happened; so it is the truth.

EDIT:

Also, I know of no mod who issues ToU violation penalty or bans people for reasons that are either personal or invalid. Ultimately, it is the user who bans themselves after exhausting all warnings and 100 points. The truth.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Vae]

Also, I know of no mod who issues ToU violation penalty or bans people for reasons that are either personal or invalid. Ultimately, it is the user who bans themselves after exhausting all warnings and 100 points. The truth.

 

You and I both know that's not true, and so do many others.

 

What have we here?...Looks like someone recently caught you by the tail, but paid the price for keeping you honest...

 

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1996048&postcount=25

[Springheel]

Yes, please do have a personal battle over what was said and done on another forum. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing we want here.

 

Anyone who has spent any time on the Eidos boards knows what they're like, and I suspect anyone who hasn't couldn't care less what they're like.

[Vae]

She presented a falsehood, and so I countered it...Yet, you are right. No need to go down that path...It's best if we end it here...

Edited March 20, 2014 by Vae

[Viktoria]

Yes, please do have a personal battle over what was said and done on another forum. That sounds like exactly the kind of thing we want here.

 

Anyone who has spent any time on the Eidos boards knows what they're like, and I suspect anyone who hasn't couldn't care less what they're like.

 

I am not in any battle. I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Personally, I like the rules on the Eidos boards. I think they are sensible enough without being OTT.

 

EDIT: To whom it may concern. Absolutely no falsehood from me.... just the usual nonsense from you.

Favourites can change over time... and really, only 1pt between TDP and TMA just confirms how much I like these two games in pretty much equal measure.

 

EDIT2: What I stated about Eidos ToU, infractions and bans absolutely is true. If people need to seek clarification on any member they believe was banned without good reason, all they have to do is contact admin. I would suggest the person who is worried here do just that and report back here with their findings.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Viktoria

[Airship Ballet]

Probably an idea to keep the dirty laundry sufficiently un-aired.

[DeltaFiveOne]

Let's just say that in my situation I was given a copy of Thi4f (PS4), watched some reviews/gameplay on it and was very disappointed to what Square Enix/Eidos Montreal (as with Hitman as well, chalk up another dead franchise..) did to the franchise... so long story short I traded it in without even opening it. I turned on my PC and downloaded TDM. You (TDM & community) developers kept it real. Thank you all for this. I would much rather pay for THIS work you all put out instead.

[Deadlove]

So what you're saying is, people are less critical over there, even if they're reading something they disagree with, for whatever reasons?

 

I think what she means is audience is less educated over there and things slip by more often. As in they don't know if they should be disagreeing because they are more uninformed than over here, at least when it concerns TDP/TMA/TDS/TDM.

 

The amount of people that have signed up for the Eidos Thief board since release seem to be the ones who think Thief14 is a new game. Ya know, mostly young, naive err...less educated, uninformed and things slip by them more often...

 

 

I don't want to wank off TDM, but this board is a lot more fun to read for me, I like to read here to read about TDM/gaming/etc. I don't want to read enldless quotes of two or three users whining about how their opinion is better just because the other guy doesn't agree. I've grown tired of online arguing and pissing contests. They have their place, but it can't be fun over at Eidos without getting banned nad the posts deleted, because the corporation is too PC.

 

Or maybe I'm just getting to be an old fart.

[Airship Ballet]

I don't want to read enldless quotes of two or three users whining about how their opinion is better just because the other guy doesn't agree.

 

Does get irritating when people just repeat themselves to one another rather than agreeing to disagree. I don't think you're implying that happened here, but it's never fun to see. Proper discussions with a bit of bite are, however, always good fun as well as being pretty informative. Pissing contests aren't any fun at all, but it's important to make the distinction between that and actual discussion (mainly directed at the people who roll their eyes at the first sign of conflicting opinions, if there are any on this board).

 

I don't want to wank off TDM,

 

I do, it's great. One of those few projects that restores my faith in the industry.

[Goldwell]

Its not a claim, its just my personal view.

I can't offer up any technical reasons for my pov... any more than I can tell you about what the engine is doing under the bonnet of my sportscar. I just love to drive her.

I just don't view TDM as a game proper.... I only see the fan mission experience as the actual game part, if you like, because that is the part I get to play.

 

Serious question... Are you a troll? I mean what you are doing stinks like a troll... coming onto the official Dark Mod forums and stating "I just don't view TDM a game" when it's pretty damn obvious it IS a game.

 

The Dark Mod does nothing if I put it into my DVD player.. it does nothing if I put it into an ancient piece of technology called a CD player.. It only reacts when I boot it up on my PC, load a mission and press "Start GAME".

 

Sure it has no narrative at its core (but that can certainly exist in the mission or the campaigns available) but that doesn't mean it isn't a game... Minecraft has no narrative either but that's a game.. heck it's a very awesome game. A game without narrative is still a game.

 

Also FAQ's and ToU's are GUIDELINES not some holy scripture that is without flaws, they are just lists that are open to interpretation or can be used and abused, it all depends on the reader really. Also the FAQ here was probably written by one person and doesn't necessarily represent the constant evolving state. Because TDM is a community based endeavor, it is always evolving and moving in the direction the community pulls it which is part of the reason why people are drawn to it.

 

In life most things are not black or white, they cannot be narrowed down to a simple binary answer because there will always be that grey area.