Blackjack distance frob highlight?

[nbohr1more]

Rather than embroil in the minutia of whether the Blackjack system is currently accurate,

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16147-blackjacking-hit-detection/

 

one thing that sprang to mind is that it might be easier to learn the skill if you could enable a head highlight similar to frob

when you are in range of the blackjack sweet spot.

 

Since frob stages are inactive on awake AI, you could possibly just use the existing frob parm and stages rather

than develop a new parm for this. So all that's needed is a difficulty option to enable this feature.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 10, 2014 by nbohr1more

[chakkman]

What is "parm"?

[nbohr1more]

You can specify persistent parameters that are affected by startup switches or menu settings.

 

See:

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=List_of_shaderParm_variables

[RJFerret]

There's a button you can push to see if you are too far away, that has no ramifications other than telling you that you are too far away. Hit the same button when you are in range, and you knock out the AI. (Both require the blackjack be equipped.)

 

I suppose a highlight would negate the need to use the button, but then why even require a highlight? Why not have the AI simply drop when you get close to them, and a menu option to disable that functionality for those who prefer ghosting? That would eliminate the need to push a button, and also eliminate the need to look at the screen.

[grayman]

... it might be easier to learn the skill if you could enable a head highlight similar to frob

when you are in range of the blackjack sweet spot.

 

Define "in range". Are you asking that all of the KO math be brought out to where it can be done every frame, or are you thinking of a simple distance check?

[nbohr1more]

I was thinking of a simple distance xyz check.

 

If you are within these bounds and the head is in the center of the screen, you should see a highlight.

 

The secondary clause is probably harder but doesn't the frob code automate that anyway?

 

We'd just need to "attach a frob box to AI if a settings were switched on" as far as I can tell?

[Briareos H]

IMO this would benefit people who are learning how to KO properly if and only if the highlight was a definite guarantee that blackjacking would work. The only thing more annoying than missing a KO is seeing a frob highlight, taking it as a go and still missing that KO.

In other words, that doesn't really sound possible or all that useful to me.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Briareos H

[chakkman]

It's just my opinion, but i rather would see a more intuitive system, than having a artifical helper, to know if the distance is correct or not. See, i never saw a problem in blackjacking in Thief 1, 2 or 3 (which had an indicator though). It just seems weird, when i'm subjectively 2 or 3 metres behind someone (keep in mind that, in a 3D game, mostly, even when you're directly behind someone, you still feel like you'd be half a metre away or so), and that's the optimal blackjack distance then. Gotta say that the distance you were able to blackjack in Thief 1 and 2 was a bit too wide though, you could blackjack from very near behind someone, to pretty far away from him, which also felt a bit unnatural.

 

Edit: I wouldn't even want to argue whether it's more "real" or not, it differs to other games. That's it, and that's what counts i guess.

Edited April 10, 2014 by chk772

[SteveL]

IMO this would benefit people who are learning how to KO properly if and only if the highlight was a definite guarantee that blackjacking would work. The only thing more annoying than missing a KO is seeing a frob highlight, taking it as a go and still missing that KO.

In other words, that doesn't really sound possible or all that useful to me.

 

Not necessarily impossible. I'd expect there to be a certain range where blackjacking will work when tried, and a smaller range where it's predictably certain to work, likewise for the view angle. You'd frob-highlight the smaller range.

[Springheel]

Or we could just have the blackjack automatically raise when the player gets in range. People would love that.

[grayman]

If you are within these bounds and the head is in the center of the screen, you should see a highlight.

 

The secondary clause is probably harder but doesn't the frob code automate that anyway?

 

We'd just need to "attach a frob box to AI if a settings were switched on" as far as I can tell?

 

The highlight code lights up objects on a line from the player's eyes forward, along his view axis, and only for a certain distance. If the code doesn't hit any objects, it creates a box forward of the eyes and looks for objects touching that box.

 

So "highlight the head" will only work if the head is on that line, or touches that box. In either case, it could be problematic because the blackjack swing might land on an ear or shoulder, failing the KO, which is contrary to what highlighting was telling them ("Swing now!").

 

IIRC, you can be successful even when not looking at the head. (i.e. looking between his shoulders,or at his neck)

 

Highlighting will have to understand these things every frame:

 

1 - Player has blackjack raised

 

2 - The AI's head is on the forward search line or touches the box.

 

3 - AI can be KO'ed in the first place. An immune AI should not have his head light up because highlighting says "Swing now!" and when they swing and fail, we'll have them back in here whining about it. And they'll be back here anyway if we opt not to light up an immune head, because they'll assume the code is broken and we'll hear "how come the heads aren't highlighting?".

 

If we implement this, then folks will expect us to implement things like "Swing sword now!" "Mantle now!" "Throw flashbomb now!" "Highlight where my arrow will hit!". And with all the recent complaints about nuThief's hand-holding, do we want to go down that road?

 

Practice, practice, practice. That solves this problem.

 

So I'm not in favor of this.

[nbohr1more]

Yeah, I was just thinking of a crude depth cue. Learning the "rules" still would require reading.

 

Perhaps a cvar rather than a menu option. That way only folks that ask will be directed to try it?

[wesp5]

I think it would be easier and better to just change the hitbox a little bit into the arm to make blackjacking possible from closer distances like suggested in the other thread.

[grayman]

I think it would be easier and better to just change the hitbox a little bit into the arm to make blackjacking possible from closer distances like suggested in the other thread.

 

I don't understand this suggestion.

 

All it does is make blackjacking less likely to fail when you're closer to the AI.

 

Why not simply back up a little as you're learning how to blackjack, until you find the right distance?

[nbohr1more]

Note:

 

I only posited this thread based on one criticism. "It's hard to tell how far you are from the AI"

That is a legitimate newbie problem, the other criticisms are fairly subjective IMHO.

The other cure would be to court some Occulus Rift \ Stereo 3d developers to help add true stereo 3d to the mod.

 

Edited April 10, 2014 by nbohr1more

[grayman]

"It's hard to tell how far you are from the AI"

That is a legitimate newbie problem,

 

An obstacle which is overcome by practice.

 

Are we moving TDM to a place where people can walk in off the street and not have any learning curve?

[nbohr1more]

Point taken lol

[wesp5]

Why not simply back up a little as you're learning how to blackjack, until you find the right distance?

 

Because it is unrealistic that you can only hit an enemy at a certain distance and not from up closer!

[grayman]

Being realistic doesn't always trump gameplay or code simplicity or team resources or time. TDM is chock full of unrealistic behavior. We can't afford to fine tune it to every player's comfort zone, so we provide a sort of middle ground where the most number of players can achieve success w/o overwhelming system and other resources.

[wesp5]

I can understand that, but as the other thread shows, some easy fixes are possible to improve the situation and New Horizon is already working on it !

[New Horizon]

I think it would be easier and better to just change the hitbox a little bit into the arm to make blackjacking possible from closer distances like suggested in the other thread.

I don't understand this suggestion.

 

All it does is make blackjacking less likely to fail when you're closer to the AI.

 

Why not simply back up a little as you're learning how to blackjack, until you find the right distance?

 

It doesn't solve the problem anyway, I've tried it.

 

The problem is more with the current system used on the AI's heads. Been a problem all along but we didn't have the full source code during the blackjack revamp of 1.05. As a non-coder myself, I have no clue how one would go about making the CM's on the AI heads properly respond when the player is standing closer.

[New Horizon]

I can understand that, but as the other thread shows, some easy fixes are possible to improve the situation and New Horizon is already working on it !

 

Never said any of the fixes are easy....some are just less difficult than others....and it falls upon others who are already more than busy to look into it since I don't have the coding experience to understand what to look for.

[New Horizon]

The problem is more with the current system used on the AI's heads. Been a problem all along but we didn't have the full source code during the blackjack revamp of 1.05. As a non-coder myself, I have no clue how one would go about making the CM's on the AI heads properly respond when the player is standing closer.

 

Just a note that the issue of failed knockouts when standing closer to AI is now fixed.

 

I looked up some old discussions I had a long time about potential problem areas.

 

There are two criteria that must be met for a knockout to succeed.

1. The blackjack must pass through the area designated by the KO cone

2. The blackjack must make contact with the collision box on the AI's head

 

I ruled out the KO cones pretty quickly, they were working fine.

 

It turned out to be the collision boxes around the AI's head. Basically, the Collision box was just a hair too small and the top of the head was poking through it. It was difficult to spot since the blackjack collision box is only swapped in at the time of impact. As long as you weren't too close, the blackjack would hit the top-back edge of the collision box and register a knockout but if you were just a bit beyond that zone, the blackjack collision model would hit the top of the AI's head before it could make contact with the head collision box. You might as well have been hitting their foot.

 

This change only affects being snug behind the AI, the existing functionality has not been affected.

[Springheel]

Lots of AI have helmets that poke higher than AI with bare heads...does the bbox take that into consideration?

[New Horizon]

I haven't finished testing all the AI yet, but if I run into any that aren't enclosed I'll add a custom setting just for those AI. I suspect though that the setting might be high enough to prevent the blackjack collision box from hitting the head first, but I'll know once I get through them all.