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[2.10] New physics for object manipulation and dragging bodies


stgatilov

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Okay, I've been playing around with the latest build and so far the new system for moving objects is absolutely amazing!

At first I felt as if I was cheating a bit by how easily objects could be manipulated silently, but the more I played around with it and gave it some thought it made a lot of sense. I'm just so used to objects behaving rather unrealistically. It doesn't make any sense for a candle being slid ever so slowly across a table to make a cacophony of noise, but I sure do expect it to. I get hung up with not wanting to see the challenge compromised in any way, but ultimately it isn't exactly a challenge to struggle with physics that are behaving unintentionally unpredictable.

With the new system you do still get punished for carelessness and banging into things trying to move too quickly but it is much easier to predict and control. That is a very positive change.

I have always struggled moving the metal grating in the Full Moon Fever FM. I really liked the concept of a vent cover behaving more like it would in life and requiring manual removal rather than the usual door-like behavior, but the idea didn't work too well in practice with the old object manipulation system. It would always result in the cover hanging on an obscure bit of geometry as soon as I attempted to move it or repeatedly clanging into the floor no matter how gently I set it down on the stone floor. Now, with some care, I can remove them completely silently every time if I take my time. It's even doable without holding creep to move things completely silently. This change fits my preferred playstyle of ghost really nicely.

I cannot comment on the body moving mechanics as I am rather unfamiliar with them in general. I haven't had anything rocket into space occasionally like it would before either.

There are a couple small things unrelated to the move/drag mechanic that I noticed but I am not sure where to bring them up in the forums so I'll just mention them here really quickly. I'm not sure they are even issues at all or just things currently WIP so I'll spoiler them as to not take up space...

Spoiler

First is the new frob highlight. As it is currently, it more or less breaks the combination lock mechanics. The lock is implemented in most FMs in rather dark areas and relies on the old highlight to brighten the texture of the wheels you spin to set the numbers of the combination.. Without the actual brightening of the highlighted object itself, the numbers on each of the dials are not able to be seen so the combination cannot be set.

Second is a strange change in the video/advanced menu with the "Uncap FPS" toggle. As it is now the default setting is "Uncap FPS: Off" and the "Max FPS" option beneath it is greyed out and not adjustable. You have to toggle the "Uncap FPS" to "on" in order to be able to set the a max FPS limit number at all. This seems backwards and is opposite of behavior in 2.09.

Last is just a question regarding the plans for bindless textures. Now that it is off by default but still perfectly functional for many, are there any plans to add a toggle for it in the options somewhere? Makes it easier to toggle is all. 

I apologize for bringing these things up here, but I really did not know where else to post such small things. The "Public access to development versions" thread seemed to be for announcements only and there isn't a general feedback/issues thread for dev builds so I was at a loss. Thanks for your time.

 

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1 hour ago, ate0ate said:

First is the new frob highlight. As it is currently, it more or less breaks the combination lock mechanics. The lock is implemented in most FMs in rather dark areas and relies on the old highlight to brighten the texture of the wheels you spin to set the numbers of the combination.. Without the actual brightening of the highlighted object itself, the numbers on each of the dials are not able to be seen so the combination cannot be set.

Yes, a lot of people have noticed it already.
I can probably say "use your lantern", although I guess it would make ghosting harder 😀

I guess @cabalistic is still considering highlighting the surface too, but it turned out to be not so easy.

Quote

Second is a strange change in the video/advanced menu with the "Uncap FPS" toggle. As it is now the default setting is "Uncap FPS: Off" and the "Max FPS" option beneath it is greyed out and not adjustable. You have to toggle the "Uncap FPS" to "on" in order to be able to set the a max FPS limit number at all. This seems backwards and is opposite of behavior in 2.09.

If Uncap FPS is off, then you are limited by 60 FPS, hence the value you set in Max FPS has no effect.
The new behavior makes it more apparent.

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I wanted to test this, but I had some never before encountered problems to just install a mission:

- On the mission list page "Download Missions" and "Refresh List" are overlapping.

- I needed to deinstall the active mission to even be able select a new one to install.

- After installing a new one I didn't get the usual summary on the left screen half.

All of these points are connected to the last active mission which was "Hidden Hands: The Anomaly". So are some of the 2.10 GUI changes incompatible with older missions that change the GUI themselves? Which would be quite annoying and should somehow be fixed or avoided, or somebody would need to test all missions for similar issues.

P.S.: I checked the new item movement now and I like it. What I don't like at all is the new Frob highlight system! Why was this changed in the first place? The new one not only ruins the atmosphere with the white glow, it also creates a lot of artifacts when e. g. seeing items through containers, doors through walls and white lines everywhere.

Edited by wesp5
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3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

All of these points are connected to the last active mission which was "Hidden Hands: The Anomaly". So are some of the 2.10 GUI changes incompatible with older missions that change the GUI themselves? Which would be quite annoying and should somehow be fixed or avoided, or somebody would need to test all missions for similar issues.

I tested some missions in the gui and it seems Hidden Hands: The Anomaly and Hidden Hands: The Lost Citadel both have this issue (maybe too much overwritten gui code?). New and old missions with sometimes altered guis (for example: The hare in the snare) show up fine, including the early Hidden Hands missions.

Edited by datiswous
removed comment about frob highlighting. Wrong topic.
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  • 5 months later...
On 5/15/2021 at 6:39 AM, stgatilov said:

The new code is more physics-based, and you won't have problem with lifting torso, head, and arms off the floor, although you will never have enough force to lift whole body and keep it in air.

Is this code used for all AI, or only human bodies? I encountered a problem with dragging a rat's body. Seems with the new code a (dead) rat cannot be moved more than a little of the ground.

Edited by datiswous
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1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Is this code used for all AI, or only human bodies? I encountered a problem with dragging a rat's body. Seems with the new code a (dead) rat cannot be moved more than a little of the ground.

It is used for all bodies.

Should it be relaxed for rats?...

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2 hours ago, datiswous said:

Yeah I think so. Well, I don't know how the code works, but currently it looks unrealistic for rats

It applies force equal to some hard-coded ratio (less than 1) multiplied by weight of the body.

Quote

I haven't tried lifting a horse yet..

You will have the same success as with a rat 😉

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On 11/9/2021 at 6:58 PM, stgatilov said:

It applies force equal to some hard-coded ratio (less than 1) multiplied by weight of the body.

Where is specified what the weight of the body is? I tried looking for it in the rat ai entity in DR, but couldn't find it. I also couldn't find it in builder ai entity.

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I trust this rat issue is going to be addressed before 2.10 is released? My mission which is set to release soon has an optional objective involving carrying a rat to a specific place. I would love to see the rat-carrying be a little less "swingy" but having it impossibly heavy makes no sense, nor does "shouldering" it which is the only other alternative.

My Fan Missions:

   Series:                                                                           Standalone:

Chronicles of Skulduggery 0: To Catch a Thief                     The Night of Reluctant Benefaction

Chronicles of Skulduggery 1: Pearls and Swine                    Langhorne Lodge

Chronicles of Skulduggery 2: A Precarious Position              

Chronicles of Skulduggery 3: Sacricide

 

 

 

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On 11/15/2021 at 5:06 AM, Bienie said:

I trust this rat issue is going to be addressed before 2.10 is released? My mission which is set to release soon has an optional objective involving carrying a rat to a specific place. I would love to see the rat-carrying be a little less "swingy" but having it impossibly heavy makes no sense, nor does "shouldering" it which is the only other alternative.

Ooops😲

Most likely I'll look into it somewhere during beta-testing.
In the worst case I can just allow larger force on rats, so that player could carry rats, albeit with swinging issues... or revert to the old code for 2.10.

But please remind me about it so that I don't forget!

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  • 11 months later...
On 5/15/2021 at 6:39 AM, stgatilov said:

Feedback is welcome 😉

First, thanks for your continued work on TDM.

I started playing TDM at version 2.10 so I cannot speak for any pre-2.10 era.

My opinion is that object handling is not a key component of the gameplay and therefore should be either trouble-free or penalty-free. Since the object handling implementation is a little troublesome, I would stick to Silent mode, however...

On 5/15/2021 at 6:39 AM, stgatilov said:

However, there is a cost too: if the manipulated item is blocked by something, you won't be able to move it. For example, if a crate has a candle on it, you won't be able to move crate vertically unless you remove the candle.

...having tried "tdm_drag2_rigid_silentmode 3" I am not fully satisfied with any of the solutions.

Cheers!

TDM_Modpack_Thumb.png

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