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Fan Mission : Hazard Pay by Kingsal 01/27/22


kingsal

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On 6/25/2022 at 8:26 AM, McPhisto2051 said:

@Obsttorte
no, here I just walked around and it crashed without any hint.
Are there perhaps some issues with the new pentium (12th) generation?

I also run a 12700k and haven't had any crashes like this.

I'm on windows 11.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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13 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Honestly if YOU find headshotting from a safe distance boring.....then don't do it. Don't attempt to gatekeep others enjoyment.

 

13 hours ago, chakkman said:

If you don't want to play the way which is shown in the video (which is not the normal way you can deal with the undead anyway), then just don't do it. Case solved.

Oh, how I like that argument. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you don't like the game, don't play it.

Why on earth should a player restrict himself in the way he achieves his goal. It's the job of the game designer to balance between the freedom the player has and the restriction under which he operates. The latter are also called rules, something pretty normal for a game. And similar to how overly restricting the player is a bad thing, the opposite can be bad either.

Spoiler

In regards to the headshots: I actually don't expected to be able to headshot the enemies, as this is normally not possible in TDM with undead, as stated by others. Once I found out that this is possible, the enemies suddenly appeared to be way less of a thread. This took away a great chunk of the tension, independent on whether I kill the enemies or not. I know I could kill them easier then expected, which already makes a difference.

Of course this is the mappers choice, and it is completely okay to choose like that. But it has implications. And everything @snatcherpointed out is how he perceives this implications. This neither implies the mission is bad or that it shouldn't be done like that in general. It's an observation, nothing more nothing less.

As much as I like the community, especially considering how civilized it is compared to the rest of the internet, I find it very counterproductive that criticism is often faced with the above attitude. Especially considering it comes from otherwise nice people 😪

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12 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

Oh, how I like that argument. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you don't like the game, don't play it.

Nobody said that you don't have to play the game. The game allows for different approaches, which is great. There are different ways to play it, and there are usually also different paths you can go in missions, which is also great. A win-win for everybody, instead of restricting players to the intended way of playing, which can be very restrictive.

I don't think you really mean what you say, you're just getting things down the wrong pipe, that's all. Because you only see black/white in what you read.

Edited by chakkman
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20 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

Of course this is the mappers choice, and it is completely okay to choose like that. But it has implications. And everything @snatcherpointed out is how he perceives this implications. This neither implies the mission is bad or that it shouldn't be done like that in general. It's an observation, nothing more nothing less.

No, he actually proposes changes to the core of the mod (or to mappers) due to the subjective observations he made in a single mission. Which is bad. The mission is the "issue" here (his issue), not the game.

BTW, I don't think it's great to have custom enemy types in a mission either. It should be uniform over all missions, otherwise you have no idea how to defeat them, if they act differently in every mission (and, in TDM, undead are almost invincible anyway). But, this mission is explicitely flagged as doing things different, so. And, same holds true for changes to the equipment as well, of course. It should be uniform across missions as well.

Edited by chakkman
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59 minutes ago, chakkman said:

Nobody said that you don't have to play the game.

That was actually refering to other replies in such discussion in general, not that specific one here. I thought I don't need to point that out. Maybe I should have.

 

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

I don't think you really mean what you say, you're just getting things down the wrong pipe, that's all. Because you only see black/white in what you read.

I don't think it is black and white seeing if I consider it offending, that if someone (not necessarely myself) brings up a valid point in regards to gameplay, the only reply is that he is not forced to play like that, essentially ignoring the argument brought up.

Similar I don't blame you for seeing black and white only just because you completely reject any kind of restriction (which is a very unspecific term to begin with), as something bad.

Actually, as @snatchertried to point out as far as I understood him, the game is restricting the player anyways. You are restricted by the amount of gear you have. You are restricted by the amount of damage you can take.

In many fms I recently played, I have to find a key for almost any door, even though I have lockpicks, for example. Is that no restriction? Often there is, despite your claims, only one way to fulfill the main goal. Find that one readable containing that one clue to that one secret switch leading to that one room containing that one item.

  • I have to acquire an item in a showcase? Why can't I break the glass?
  • I have to make my job worthwhile? Why is there no alternative if I can't find sufficient amounts of loot?
  • I have to find clues on a specific matter, maybe to incriminate a person? What do I do if there is none I can find? How can I actually know there is something like that to begin with (despite the game telling me it is)?

So in the really important matters, those which decide whether or not you accomplish your mission and win the game so to speak, the player is normally forced to crawl through a set of bottlenecks, while in less relevant matters, where minor restrictions might spice things up or could create tension, any derivation from the known formula is bad.

I assume there is some sort of logic behind that reasoning. I just don't get it, though.🙄

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

No, he actually proposes changes to the core of the mod

Where? :blink: As far as I read it he is explicitly refering to this mission and was even proposing to move the discussion here instead of holding it in a seperate thread.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

I don't think it's great to have custom enemy types in a mission either. It should be uniform over all missions, otherwise you have no idea how to defeat them

You have a point here. Although I don't see the issue in having differences between missions, but more in the authors not communicating them. Although that could be intentional, too.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

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I have edited my previous "controversial" post and added:

Broadhead arrows - New rules

[...]

Another idea is the introduction of "Hardening potions" which would work similarly to the Holy Water: you can get insta-kills with Broadhead arrows but for a limited time.

TDM_Modpack_42.png

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1 hour ago, Obsttorte said:

Where? :blink: As far as I read it he is explicitly refering to this mission and was even proposing to move the discussion here instead of holding it in a seperate thread.

He was addressing mappers in general, and proposing some new kinds of equipment.

Quote

I can think of a couple of ways headshots / insta-kills could be more engaging and satisfying.

Hardened arrows (--- insert your fancy arrow name here ---)

Hardened arrows are made with a rare, strong but lightweight metal that dissolve when in contact with liquid and soft tissue (--- insert your fancy story here ---)

Rules: only hardened arrows can get you a headshot and you only get to have a handful of them throughout a mission. A hardened arrow always gets you an insta-kill, regardless of where it hits in the body, and if aimed to the head, you might get a headshot. Hardened arrows cannot be recovered.

By limiting the options players would be challenged to apply different strategies, instead of the same tactic over and over again. Besides, insta-kills are guaranteed 90% of the time (no punishment / no reloads).

Broadhead arrows - New rules

If hardened arrows cannot be implemented for whatever reason, an alternative to allow for headshots / insta-kills without overpowering and/or frustrating players too much would be:

You get your headshot / insta-kill but only if the player is in close range of the subject, and aiming directly to the head. Sword-fight range, I would say. You can attack from behind or from a height, but you must be very very close.

This way the author/dev/modder can be sure 90% of the times players won't miss the shot, will get the headshot / insta-kill and will prevent the many reloads but still, the new dynamic remains challenging since it includes some risk (get close to the enemy to get your cool reward).

EDIT - Another idea is the introduction of "Hardening potions" which would work similarly to the Holy Water: you can get insta-kills with Broadhead arrows but for a limited time.

 

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In this mission it  takes 1 headshot to kill a zombie on normal/ hard and on expert it takes 2 ( or 1 to the head and 1 to the body). I appreciate the discussion, but I'll be keeping the headshot rules as they are. 

As for adding new mechanics and AI to my missions-  I like doing it and will continue to do so!

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7 hours ago, chakkman said:

He was addressing mappers in general, and proposing some new kinds of equipment.

 

I once made a tutorial about adding custom arrows to a mission, addressing mappers in general on how to create new kinds of equipment. That doesn't equal to wanting to add something to the core mod. I didn't wanted it back then, and snatcher didn't explicitly write that he wants to, so this is basically only your interpretation. Personally I find it relatively unclear whether he gives ideas to mappers to use in their missions or whether he is proposing to exchange the broadheads. Maybe @snatcher can tell us.

2 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

It's VERY abusable, but no one does it.

So ignoring the first is based on the assumption of the latter. 🤨

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

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Simple, go watch people play the game on twitch and youtube, count how many people are killing AI with arrows to the face.

I'll save you the time, it's almost 0. I've watched thousands of hours of TDM playthroughs and such, most people basically forget they even have arrows that can kill.

Really not sure what you are arguing for here though, if mappers want to implement this in their missions that's their decision, I'm all fine with that, I won't use the mechanic anyways.
 

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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I am not arguing, I just wanted to know how you came to that statement. How representative uploaded playthroughs are is something I can hardly judge, though.

Nevertheless. I don't think that the matter is whether or not mappers can or should implement this or that in their missions. In the end it is always the choice of the mapper. And if you or others tend to not use stuff they don't like and are ok with that, that's fine either. But other players may have other mindsets. Some of us tend to see games as a challenge they have want to win, and they will take the shortest and easiest way to accomplish this. And for those of us balancing this stuff out is very important why "not using it" simple isn't an option. If a gameplay mechanic simplifies reaching the goal, we gonna use it. If it oversimplifies reaching the goal, we consider this bad. And as much as I can accept your attitude, it might be able for you to accept mine.

On the matter of broadheads I think it is a delicate topic. We had this discussion internally several years ago already as they are really on the edge. In some missions they are fine, but there are others where they can be considered very powerful. And the fact that the broadheads are as they are is a compromise, no consens. So it is no surprise that people who weren't part of that discussion bring up this matter.

 

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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1 hour ago, Obsttorte said:

Personally I find it relatively unclear whether he gives ideas to mappers to use in their missions or whether he is proposing to exchange the broadheads. Maybe @snatcher can tell us.

I can (try to) tell you, @Obsttorte :

I was set out to comment on this topic the "issues I observed" in the video. Then I though this could be a topic for a broader discussion. The half way through I felt I was going astray and changed my mind again. My apologies.

I provided (my) feedback first and foremost, to Kingsal and for this mission. Second, to any other mission creator that might read the post.

I can very well be wrong but I think Kingsal expected players to play his mission in a particular way. Just like any other author that spends a good deal of time building a map, creating new objects and textures, thinking of a story, programming new mechanics, publishing... In TDM at least, I find it hard to believe that author's desire is for players to first kill each and every entity there is and only then explore a soulless arena.

Since I like to provide constructive feedback whenever I can, here is something I also considered worth mentioning as part of my observation but discarded for another day: Zombies.

Players, in any game, know Zombies are disposable pieces of flesh. And Zombies must be dealt with with urgency and in a gruesome way. If - instead of zombies - the mission would have had workers (I am not suggesting this), I am not that sure this particular player would have approached the quarry the way he did.

Here is the suggestion: what if zombies keep re-spawning and re-spawning in the quarry? Players realize killing zombies is cool and it gives them some time but ultimately, it is a lost cause that keeps depleting their gear. Wouldn't that make the quarry more challenging for all players?

(Zombies can stop re-spawning as soon as the player reaches an objective).

TDM_Modpack_42.png

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3 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

EDIT: You can even headshot Elite guards, but I can only get it 1/10 tries, so I don't bother.

Hmm... I should try that. These guys are annoying the crap out of me in every mission they show up. 😁

I simply hate invincible enemies in any game. Well, gas arrows do the trick, but, how many missions actually feature gas arrows?

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Don't forget that The Dark Mod,  like thief franchise, are immersive sims, with emergent gameplay.

Here's a lost city, a bunch of guards and undead. Here's some tools and objectives,  figure it out.

The author of course has some idea how to do it, but players come up with their own way,  including murdering every last entity in the mission. Why does that bother you?

 

For example, playing like this is just as acceptable as sneaking around.

 

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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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4 hours ago, snatcher said:

Here is the suggestion: what if zombies keep re-spawning and re-spawning in the quarry? Players realize killing zombies is cool and it gives them some time but ultimately, it is a lost cause that keeps depleting their gear. Wouldn't that make the quarry more challenging for all players?

(Zombies can stop re-spawning as soon as the player reaches an objective).

You mean like it is done in some missions in Call of Duty?

3 hours ago, chakkman said:

I simply hate invincible enemies in any game. Well, gas arrows do the trick, but, how many missions actually feature gas arrows?

Most missions containing elite guards also contain one or more gas arrows. But you often have to get the guards to clump up and score a tripple knockout to preserve ammo. Or just lure em into a room and block the door with a box which is blocked by another box. The physics engine only handles direct impulse propagation, so a door can move another object, but that object can't move anything else... It is a cheaty but fun way to deal with leet guards and other (semi-)invincible AI, authors add to enforce ghosting.

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5 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

You can also drop crates on elite heads to KO them

Aren't they ko-immune? Or is that ignored when considering ko's due to heavy objects?

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

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11 hours ago, Oktokolo said:

You mean like it is done in some missions in Call of Duty?

I don't know!

Perhaps the zombie just collapses for a minute and then wakes up and gets back to work with one, two, three arrows in his head.

Perhaps the zombie turns to ashes or liquefies or vaporizes and a clone spawns in an obscure area of the map and replaces the previous instance.

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48 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Give it a try.

Or maybe not,  don't want people to start calling it overpowered and suggest that only certain creates can be used

mimimi 😜

I have to check whether this is stated in the spawnarg restriction, though, as there is ko_immune and gas_immune iirc, and mappers may expect falling crates to fall under the first category, which doesn't seem to be the case if you are right.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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14 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Don't forget that The Dark Mod,  like thief franchise, are immersive sims, with emergent gameplay.

Here's a lost city, a bunch of guards and undead. Here's some tools and objectives,  figure it out.

The author of course has some idea how to do it, but players come up with their own way,  including murdering every last entity in the mission. Why does that bother you?

You are probably right and I misunderstood what TDM was trying to achieve. I will reflect.

 

14 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

example, playing like this is just as acceptable as sneaking around.

Holy crap! Nice moves 😲

TDM_Modpack_42.png

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