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Yeah, maybe they should just avoid getting raped, right? Easy. And those with depression should smile once in a while. And remember, first rule of dating: don't be ugly. Any other great insights?

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This thread is turning into a dumpster fire pretty quickly.


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8 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

Yeah, maybe they should just avoid getting raped, right? Easy. And those with depression should smile once in a while. And remember, first rule of dating: don't be ugly. Any other great insights?

How about: there are no actual rapists in these incidents. Accusations that "sound real" aren't evidence. If your "truth" isn't good enough for you to bring to court, keep it to yourself. If you can't do that, prepare yourself for a defamation lawsuit.

 

9 minutes ago, Xarg said:

This thread is turning into a dumpster fire pretty quickly.

It was on fire the moment the inaccurate and inflammatory thread title was typed.

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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

Yeah, maybe they should just avoid getting raped, right?

That's impossible but bashing monsters isn't justice and, above all, it's futile.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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2 hours ago, jaxa said:

How about: there are no actual rapists in these incidents. Accusations that "sound real" aren't evidence. If your "truth" isn't good enough for you to bring to court, keep it to yourself. If you can't do that, prepare yourself for a defamation lawsuit.

 

No defamation suit yet and / or final judgement in court, everyone is entitled to have information as opposed to just sweeping it under the carpet.

 

2 hours ago, jaxa said:

It was on fire the moment the inaccurate and inflammatory thread title was typed.

Where's the freedom of expression without provocation?

 

But overall the analogy in this case to controversial alleged victims / bloggers is not appropriate because their reputation is questionable at best - Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkesian and the like. Similar to Angela Davis. 

They're just different cases. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Anderson
Clarification for defamation.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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2 hours ago, jaxa said:

How about: there are no actual rapists in these incidents. Accusations that "sound real" aren't evidence. If your "truth" isn't good enough for you to bring to court, keep it to yourself. If you can't do that, prepare yourself for a defamation lawsuit.

Still pretty poor.

How about: that girl's statement sound horrific. It was painful to read, and I'm really sorry if that's what's happened to her. If that's so, the guy responsible is a bastard, and should answer for everything what he did. Still, he should have the right to defend himself in court, like every one of us, in whatever legal case. At the same time, we should work together to change the system, so the victims aren't afraid to turn to law enforcement to seek help and justice, as soon as possible, instead of having sort of coming-outs decades later, as the only form of relief. This also includes making the system as fool-proof as possible, so such statements or accusations aren't freely thrown around by those, who just want to make life of a particular person miserable.

See? Wasn't  that hard.

Where's the freedom of expression without provocation?

 

image.png.fb71c3987f99f1f557e387f7dd38764e.png

Edited by peter_spy
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31 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

 

 

image.png.fb71c3987f99f1f557e387f7dd38764e.png

2bP4pJr4wVimqCWjYimXJe2cnCgnGuJYgXiatYCx

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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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7 hours ago, peter_spy said:

^And? That doesn't justify the thread title being unnecessarily clickbaity.

Agreed, save the clickbait titles for TDM missions. Like: Corbin the... [insert shock factor here] 🙀

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https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/02/the-justice-system-is-rewarding-false-accusers/

Quote

Vast sums of taxpayers’ cash are being handed out to people who claim to have been the victims of sexual assault. The government’s Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) pays up almost automatically when it comes to allegations of rape – often before a conviction has been secured.

Quote

In theory, the scheme requires CICA assessors first to determine that a crime has actually been committed. But in practice, this requirement seems to be limited to a confirmatory opinion from investigating police officers. In cases of serious violence, medical reports can be used to confirm the extent of physical or psychological injuries. When it comes to claims based on alleged sexual assaults – covered by ‘Part B’ of the compensation tariff – the CICA’s default position appears to be that it should pay up, even before the crime has been prosecuted.

Quote

Most infamously, the CICA paid £22,000 in compensation to the now notorious fantasist, Carl Beech. Last month, Beech was handed an 18-year prison sentence for perverting the course of justice when he lied about the existence of a ‘VIP paedophile ring’. One of Beech’s convictions related specifically to the cash he had fraudulently claimed from the CICA for sexual abuse which never took place. Despite there being no evidence of any crime committed against Beech, the taxpayer paid out an enormous sum – and it is unlikely to see a penny back.

"Believe all victims".

"Why would they lie? What's in it for them?"

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22 hours ago, peter_spy said:

If that's so, the guy responsible is a bastard, and should answer for everything what he did. Still, he should have the right to defend himself in court, like every one of us, in whatever legal case. At the same time, we should work together to change the system, so the victims aren't afraid to turn to law enforcement to seek help and justice, as soon as possible, instead of having sort of coming-outs decades later, as the only form of relief. This also includes making the system as fool-proof as possible, so such statements or accusations aren't freely thrown around by those, who just want to make life of a particular person miserable.

I certainly agree with that.

But at the same time we are making sure that the justice system is accessible and effective at prosecuting genuine criminals, we should also ensure that society in general (and the media in particular) properly respect the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" as the bedrock of a free society, rather than treating it as an annoying inconvenience that gets in the way of punishing people who are "obviously" guilty.

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selling the story to every news outlet they can find without reporting it to the police first means it probably didn't happen and its a story, as in if they had been to the police they would have been told to not sell the story to news sites until after the trial as giving evidence to the news before the court would make the evidence null and void in court as someone wouldn't get a fair trial.

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Not necessarily going to the police right away is a good idea if you can't afford a good lawyer. It's a vicious circle where everyone will laugh in your face and mop the floor with every shred of dignity you have remaining.

Nobody notices the every day systemic problems. Humans are made in a way that we get pumped with adrenaline when FEMEN show tits in public and such. People usually only observe the extreme cases.

Do you notice how people who disregard violence against women, are actually the same people who think torture and the death penalty is OK in the year 2019?

 

Edited by Anderson
Grammar.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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6 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/02/the-justice-system-is-rewarding-false-accusers/

"Believe all victims".

"Why would they lie? What's in it for them?"

If the investigator / prosecutor decided this, that means that it's probably cheaper than wasting time and money for organising court hearings. It's a win win win.


"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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2 hours ago, stumpy said:

depends what the law is like in Quebec,

 Very true.

At the same time it is in the interests of all parties to have swift justice within a reasonable time according to the principle of effectiveness.

I.e. the longer a case is on schedule, the longer justice crawls for other people that come to court as well.

Edited by Anderson
More information on bureaucracy.
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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Well, it would be a pity if the investigation of these allegations proved them true. I'd certainly expect better from a talented person like Soule. I'd expect him to be more than your typical, garden-variety "I'm a man, I can't help it, I don't mind treating women like trash" type fool. Even accounting for the proverbial "death of the author", it would be uncomfortable knowing he mistreated someone in the past. Though these things are often harder to investigate, given the time elapsed, I definitely think they should be investigated and justice should be served, if there are any doubts.

I sincerely don't think dismissals of people coming forth and talking about this ("All of them are lying about this, they just want attention...") or witch hunts throughout social media and elsewhere on the Internet ("Such and such is a rapist, take my word for it...") are helpful at all. If anything, they only serve to amplify bad arguments that gloss over the wider topic. As the other Pete here in the discussion noted, one needs to be a bit cautious about these things. From everything I've read from psych-research and watched/heard of people's testimonies on cases like this, I know for a fact that most women (or men) who have been physically abused do not lie about that awful experience, and the trauma it virtually always leaves behind. This also strikes somewhat of a personal chord, as a female friend of mine was abused on one occassion and is still trying to cope with the scars of that (I don't know the specifics and they don't interest me, but it's clear it was traumatic for her and she's trying to live with it and overcome it - part of why I've been very supportive of her, and not only in that regard). Personally, I have always loved women, I'd like to hope I've been brought up in a manner that is always respectful towards them, and I absolutely cannot understand how certain men could be willing to "think with their dick" first, rather than their mind and heart. Regardless of any attraction, women are human beings and individuals like any other, first and foremost, and should be treated accordingly. The same goes for men towards women and women towards men - if you don't respect the dignity of the other person, just because of their sex or your own horniness, you're only fooling yourself and spreading pain where there shouldn't be any.

People being people, you are bound to get some assholes among both men and women who purposefully lie even on topics this serious, for whatever self-serving reason, but I am not convinced it's the majority of such people. Definitely not. All the more when we have decades of data and testimonies the world over that getting raped or otherwise physically abused does lead to genuine personal trauma that you can't just shrug off, like so. If we're not going to call people traumatised by bullying liars and cheats, we should be a bit cautious about claiming the same about people who come forth with allegations of getting raped by someone. That said, allegations such as these are very serious, and everyone who uses them frivolously to try and discredit others or harm them belongs behind bars. It's precisely because these allegations are so serious that no one should ever use them against another person unless they really were abused and are 100 % sincere about it,

Bottom line, if there is enough suspicion Soule might have abused the lady in question, forced her into something against her will, etc., or even did it to several women, an investigation should be carried out. If there's not enough convincing evidence or convincing testimonies and the whole thing smells like a potential media circus, some caution should be exercised too. This isn't exactly an easy topic, and it's all the more important to not get carried away in either direction.

Edited by Petike the Taffer
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On 8/29/2019 at 10:58 PM, peter_spy said:

Wow, the amount of defensive reaction and bias towards men's perspective in this thread is... staggering. And I'm saying it as a man.

I must say I expected more nuanced or wiser reaction from this community, so I shall refrain from the further discussion, in order not to enrage or loose the last ounces of respect for those who have spoken here.

There'd be another option... relax, accept and respect that there are different opinions, and contribute to the discussion. So far, noone has offended someone else, or got into a rush, so, i don't see the problem.

I don't see the bias towards a men's perspective, though. Orb Weaver stated it quite nicely. There is absolutely nothing credible in legally unchallenged allegations. I can also claim a lot of things. I could even start a Twitter movement, to pile up with people who claim the same things. But, that doesn't mean that i'm right about it. And, the "affected" women should also be very clear about what such allegations mean for the person they incriminate: Even if the accusations are proven to be wrong before a court, stuff like that will always stick at you. For the rest of your life.

We have such a case in Germany, with a guy who did weather forecasts. He was discharged of rape accusations. But, every time i see his face or his name now, i have to think "the rapist". I don't think most women are really aware what it means when they accuse someone of stuff like that. They better have a good reason, and good proof to do so. Just like anyone accusing someone of molesting childs, or mudering someone.

Don't get me wrong. Everyone committing a crime should be charged for it. There'll better be good proof though, and a fair trial. We don't need no Twitter movements for people who can accuse anyone of anything. That's just washing the dirty laundry, and has absolutely zero to do with justice. Especially when you consider the "power" element involved.

Edited by chakkman

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Which victims do you mean? I only accept victims of people who have been proven guilty of a crime. Sorry, i work that way. In a justice system, there has to be proof of guilt to punish perpetrators. I don't accept people piling up on social networks to claim that they are victims. If i would accept that, then i would also accept that noone deserves a fair trial anymore.

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I don't have any problem with both respecting and understanding the legal system, and having empathy for someone who writes statement like the one in the OP. These aren't mutually exclusive or binary. I do have a problem with asking for respect while not displaying any. There is no tolerance for intolerance, etc.

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On 8/29/2019 at 6:08 PM, Anderson said:

The #metoo movement went with a credible "testimony" against one of my favorite video game music composers - Jeremy Soule. I always made it a rule for myself not judge of an artist/writer/composer by his personality but just to look at his professional work. Don't know if I can be indifferent to this.

Would you like to listen to the music of a rapist henceforth? 

http://www.nathalielawhead.com/candybox/calling-out

I've read the whole thing, thank you for providing the link.

If even half of this is true, this lady was bullied, guilt-tripped and abused, when she was at a clearly vulnerable position in her life and career. Even if we account for the possibility she might be exaggerating some things, I am inclined to believe her on the majority of her complaints. It seems Soule played her and several other people like a fiddle and did cause them harm. All the more damning that he initially approached the lady from the position of an encouraging mentor, only to use her (and not only physically). Plenty of ample e-mail evidence too, especially if it's still in her inbox and a potential investigation could look at it.

Again, I'd prefer if both extremes didn't go into overdrive and there was a level-headed investigation instead. Better safe than sorry.

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What I'm up to (sporadic updates)

Partners in Crime (my FM series, in development)

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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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It may sound dystopian but a fair solution is at our feet:

Declassify all phone geolocation and audio transcript data from the NSA for all involved parties.

If there was a rape there will be:

Phone geolocation for both parties.

"Listening" audio from multiple backdoor-ed computing devices (phones, TV's, etc).

Text-to-speech for the above audio collections.

There's no such thing as a "no evidence" crime when NSA collects "everything".

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http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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