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#51 ungoliant

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 02:40 PM

Sorry, but that's too Advertising. Good FM is better Advertising, than votes.


What is wrong with advertisement?

I partially agree with what you are saying. Great FM's are ultimately what will make TDM successful, and are great advertisement. BUT I'm not asking you to vote for Heart of Lone Salvation, or Flakebridge Monastery. I am asking you to vote for The Dark Mod. If you think the project is good and is worth supporting, then you should vote!

#52 LongShad

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 03:01 PM

Look. You develop toolkit for mappers genre stealth-action. And mappers develop Fan-missions for Thief-fans. If FM will be boring, they will cease to be interesting for Thief-fans. And then develop FM for TDM will be not demand. After FM-developers is players too.

#53 Aprilsister

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:52 PM

Look. You complain about FMs. You are set straight. You then demand that TDM compels FM authors to create FMs you approve of. Look. You make a FM. TDM is an excellent toolset for doing so and any nonsense you want to put forth about what it lacks as far as supplying the tools to create excellent FMs is utterly refuted with each new FM.

So look and get to wowing us. Look.

#54 Springheel

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:01 PM

It's probably not easy to tell, if you're not in regular contact with the developers, which problems in a mission are due to mapper error and which are due to basic TDM issues.

I don't think LongShad is saying anything terribly unreasonable.
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#55 Aprilsister

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:10 PM

It is terribly unreasonable to call the FMs I've played "boring". Some 2 or 3 have been. Some 20 or so have been great fun. 5 or 6 have been awesome.

So yes its terribly unreasonable for someone to call TDM boring and then being set straight about that to insist that the FMs are boring and then finally to insist and reveal that he is bored because he needs a walkthrough and some more hints. It's unreasonable to insist that things be dumbed-down to his level or he will yelp "boring boring boring".

#56 7upMan

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:11 PM

What is unreasonable is that he refuses to show us how he'd like an FM done by making one himself. To say that he's already busy with another FM project is cheap, really cheap. Even Shadowhide, whom I consider hardly more than a troll, had the guts to just take DarkRadiant for a ride. We know what came out of it, but at least he tried.

Look.  




(sorry, couldn't resist)


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#57 LongShad

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:50 PM

Boring

What do you latched on to this word? Most FMs are boring for me because they often get stuck (FM-developers do not want show me the way).
7upMan

To say that he's already busy with another FM project is cheap, really cheap.

Do not believe me? Let us show you! Only it's not for a DarkRadiant, for DromEd.

Tomorrow I'll go more for popcorn.

#58 Aprilsister

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:02 PM

they often get stuck (FM-developers do not want show me the way)


I realize there is a translation problem here. I've gone to lengths to underline this as a point, being an area for potential problems in both the literal and cultural areas.

So, having said that, let me point out where you need some strict clarification. The FMs don't get stuck. You get stuck. And why? Well because you need some hand-holding to "show you the way". That's not a failing of the missions or the original engine or the mod or urban sprawl or Banquo or Bill Gates or Osama bin Laden or Jethro Pugh... it's your failing if you want to know the truth because you seem to be admitting that you have this problem with TDM FMs in general. And while some very few TDM FMs are guilty of obtuse "puzzle" failings? Certainly not more so than every other random game. Less so I'd say because these FMs are generally made by a brighter set...

Edited by Aprilsister, 05 December 2010 - 06:03 PM.


#59 STiFU

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

To ME, this sounds like the language is a problem. An Author usually WRITES readables, which PARTIALLY contain useful information and hints to your next goal and if you don't understand them, you're stuck. I actually never really got stuck IN any darkmod fanmission so far, not even in the BIG ones. You just need to read LETTERS et cetera carefully (use a dictionary if necessary) and watch out for visual clues, e.g. scratches on the floor next to a hidden door. You should go check out Fieldmedic's "Betrayal". Not only is it an excellent fanmission, but it also features some hints in the form of new objectives, that you receive during play.

And Aprilsister: Cool down! Chill! :)

#60 ungoliant

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:16 PM

hrmm, yeah as long as the language barrier exists in FM's, the only way for an author to point you in the right direction would be like a minimap with objective blips or something.

Is it possible that we could implement carbon copies of our existing fonts to other languages, and have someone translate all briefings/objectives/readables before a mission release? Or maybe just one font, and non-english players would just have to suffer with lack of readable variety.

#61 Springheel

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:06 PM

It is terribly unreasonable to call the FMs I've played "boring". Some 2 or 3 have been. Some 20 or so have been great fun. 5 or 6 have been awesome.


Boring is in the eye of the beholder. And you have to keep the language issue in mind...based on context, I would say that when he says "boring", he actually means "frustrating and therefore not fun".

What is unreasonable is that he refuses to show us how he'd like an FM done by making one himself.


Frankly, I think that's a ridiculous statement. Are you not allowed to comment on how terrible a movie is unless you go make one yourself? I can't complain about the quality of food at a restaurant unless I go cook some myself to show them how I'd like it done?

LongShad didn't just complain; he made concrete suggestions (and pointed to a specific TDM mission that he liked). I can understand where he's coming from to some degree--I've gotten stuck in more than a few TDM missions, and I'm a native English speaker! Imagine not understanding the language and not having the forum to go to for hints.
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#62 Alex-X-x

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:22 PM

i would call a mission successful, if it would keep me busy for few hours, without make me bored, actually to make me want, to find out more interesting things on level, to enjoy this atmosphere of level, etc. I played most TDM Fms, and only few were quite interesting, but still, i couldn't enjoy the atmosphere much, i never got this "ingame presence"  feeling, like in thief 1-2 series, or even Thief 3 "The Cradle" level for example.

There is still something missing in TDM/FM's, what would literally "drag me out of my seat" and place me inside the game.


Edited by Alex-X-x, 05 December 2010 - 08:26 PM.


#63 ungoliant

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 11:45 PM

i would call a mission successful, if it would keep me busy for few hours, without make me bored, actually to make me want, to find out more interesting things on level, to enjoy this atmosphere of level, etc. I played most TDM Fms, and only few were quite interesting, but still, i couldn't enjoy the atmosphere much, i never got this "ingame presence" feeling, like in thief 1-2 series, or even Thief 3 "The Cradle" level for example.

There is still something missing in TDM/FM's, what would literally "drag me out of my seat" and place me inside the game.


based on context, I would say that when he says "boring", he actually means "frustrating and therefore not fun".


woops, there goes that theory spring.

Alex - you do know that we're not getting paid to work miracles here, right? In fact: nobody here is being paid to work at all!!! If you really want that warm fuzzy all over feeling when you play an FM, then you're just going to have to wait until mappers work out the kinks of their style with DR. I myself haven't released a mission, and I still find things all over the place where I settle or compromise a vision I had about my FM. Most of these things revolve around doing something wrong or inefficiently and not wanting to go back and do 2 hours work to fix things.

TDM and DR are both very new. It is a little baby-game. Wait for it to mature a few years.

#64 Alex-X-x

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:02 AM

dude, i know this, thats why it's a MOD, not an standalone game, mod means free, i already thanked TDM team, for their work, then, we were asked to post here our opinions too, not only at darkfate.ru forums.

 Some people here said, that  we are only blaming this mod badly, it's a bullshit, most people at darkfate are impressed by this mod, and only few didn't like it, and mostly cause they have a slow pcs, and it lags by them.

And many are also impatient to wait, for really huge and interesting FM's are out, and they have to blame, most small and boring FMs we've got until yet.



#65 ungoliant

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:12 AM

i would call a mission successful, if it would keep me busy for few hours, without make me bored, actually to make me want, to find out more interesting things on level, to enjoy this atmosphere of level, etc. I played most TDM Fms, and only few were quite interesting, but still, i couldn't enjoy the atmosphere much


These are not things that mappers want to hear, Alex. Have you ever heard of 'positive reinforcement'? As a general rule, try saying something positive about an FM, and then offer an idea for an improvement without saying "this part was bad / boring / no atmosphere / uninteresting"

dude, i know this, thats why it's a MOD, not an standalone game, mod means free, i already thanked TDM team, for their work, then, we were asked to post here our opinions too, not only at darkfate.ru forums.

Some people here said, that we are only blaming this mod badly, it's a bullshit, most people at darkfate are impressed by this mod, and only few didn't like it, and mostly cause they have a slow pcs, and it lags by them.

And many are also impatient to wait, for really huge and interesting FM's are out, and they have to blame, most small and boring FMs we've got until yet.


You are treating people like they work for you. These people do not need to be here. They could scurry off and spend their time elsewhere. I could care less if you've thanked the TDM team before if you keep saying stuff like in the first quote. That does not excuse being mean or overly critical to mappers who have barely 1 year experience with DR.

positive reinforcement.

Edited by ungoliant, 06 December 2010 - 12:23 AM.


#66 Alex-X-x

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:28 AM

 

You are treating people like they work for you.



lolwut? :huh: In what part of my post, made u type thing like this?




#67 greebo

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:37 AM

Let's not get overly defensive here, I do believe that the wrong people are accused of being "anti-TDM".

I think it's cool of the darkfate people to actually come over here and offer their opinion, despite the language barrier. While some of their opinions might be transported in a slightly harsh way (foreign language!), I don't think there's any reason to burn down the thread, everybody is entitled to have their opinion as the saying goes.

As Alex said, most people at darkfate seem to be in favour of TDM, and only a few of them dislike it and start trolling, which is exactly the same situation as with TTLG, and we've learnt to live with that fact.

#68 Alex-X-x

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:09 AM

Let's not get overly defensive here, I do believe that the wrong people are accused of being "anti-TDM".

I think it's cool of the darkfate people to actually come over here and offer their opinion, despite the language barrier. While some of their opinions might be transported in a slightly harsh way (foreign language!), 


thanks for some warm words there! ;) 

Cheers.




#69 7upMan

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:50 AM

What do you latched on to this word? Most FMs are boring for me because they often get stuck (FM-developers do not want show me the way).


Maybe it would be a good idea to write your post in English and write the same thing in Russian below, so someone with command of both languages can say if there's a misunderstanding because of that language barrier. Do you really mean "скучно"? 

Do not believe me? Let us show you! Only it's not for a DarkRadiant, for DromEd.

Tomorrow I'll go more for popcorn.


Well, I'm definitely curious. Sliptip did manage to work miracles with DromEd, so if you manage to get into his footsteps AND tell an exciting story WHILE grabbing the player by the hand and dragging him along the way... well, then I'll politely apologize.

 

I played most TDM Fms, and only few were quite interesting, but still, i couldn't enjoy the atmosphere much, i never got this "ingame presence"  feeling, like in thief 1-2 series, or even Thief 3 "The Cradle" level for example.


I think The Cradle is a bad example, because it might just well be that this is the single scariest level in gaming history. Remembering the sheer horror when playing that level still makes my hair stand up. I don't think that ANYTHING will ever compare to The Cradle and not fail miserably (Amnesia: Dark Descent being the exception). 


Is it possible that we could implement carbon copies of our existing fonts to other languages, and have someone translate all briefings/objectives/readables before a mission release? Or maybe just one font, and non-english players would just have to suffer with lack of readable variety.


Believe me, if it were possible without MAJOR work, Hyeron (French translator) and I would be all over you (literally speaking).  Here is a thread highlighting the issues with this.
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#70 Fidcal

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:59 AM

One use of my player notes will be that people who don't like readables can just glance at them and optionally any essential clues will be extracted plus extra help on later pages. If I provide a phonetic google translate of my player notes is that of any use?

For instance, does this make any sense....

Odin iz variantov ispol'zovaniya moego otmechaet, igrok budet, chto lyudi, kotorye ne lyubyat readables mozhete prosto vzglyanut' na nih i [ya] nyeobyazatel'no [/ I] sushchestvennyh klyuchi budut izvlecheny plyus dopolnitel'naya pomoshch' na posleduyushchih stranitsah. Yesli ya predostavlyu foneticheskie Google Translate moih zametok igroka v tom, chto nikakoi? pol'zy.


[EDIT] Not just readables but some visual clues will also go into player notes such as "I should find a way up there"

#71 STiFU

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:27 AM

ungoliant, you should really cool down. If they say something's boring and also give reasons why they think so, it's their valid opinion. There's nothing anyone can do about it, despite listening to them. And it's good that they say what they think. Aside from Shadowhide and maybe also LongShad (still not sure) everyone seemed to be pretty mature about this topic. Think of it this way. If we as a whole represented by someone who is flaming or sounding very harsh, darkFate would eventually think the very same thing about us, that we once thought about them.

7upman, maybe you should do Russian translations in the future instead of German, seeing that the Russian speaking population is a lot bigger and english seems to be spread wider among the Germans. :) Isn't it possible to write russian without cyrillic letters?

[EDIT] Not just readables but some visual clues will also go into player notes such as "I should find a way up there"

Stuff like that would of course be done best with a player voiceover. How far are we with those anyway? There were plans to record default player voice samples. I heard some occasionaly in a couple of FMs, but only things like a small "Oooops".

#72 7upMan

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:43 AM

 

7upman, maybe you should do Russian translations in the future instead of German, seeing that the Russian speaking population is a lot bigger and english seems to be spread wider among the Germans. :)


I already gave this some thought, but I don't have a Russian keyboard, so I can only do translations from RU > DE / RU > EN, not the other way around.

Isn't it possible to write russian without cyrillic letters?



As you can see from Fidcal's attempt above, it's a real hassle to try to decipher what was intended there. I personally refer to this method only as a last resort.
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#73 Sotha

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:54 AM

Yeah, opinions with justifications deserve respect. Otherwise nothing good will come out of this. I am happy that we mappers have now darkfate opinions to learn from.

To me it basically boils down to language barrier. TDM gameplay seems to prefer clever hidden clues in readables to relay information. I like this, it is better than an oblivion-style big red flashing arrow pointing where to go. These readable hidden clues are difficult to see behind the language barrier and this results in problems: frustration and boredom. I confess that I've also been utterly frustrated in some missions by missed clues or keys. Only finnish resilience kept me from quitting the missions.

Basically we could use more missions with basic fun sneaking instead of keyhunts. Or maybe the mappers could build OPTIONAL mission objectives which are behind devious hidden puzzles and those who do not like puzzles or keyhunts, could complete the mission without delving on the matter. I'm not saying all missions should be like this, but mappers should consider it.

Remember, a very successful mission is a mission which pleases many different kind of players: I see that optional objectives could help in this regard.

The best solution, would of course to have some kind of possibilty to do translations. I will never do translations for my missions, but will not mind of someone does them so that they respect the original message.
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#74 STiFU

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:10 AM

To me it basically boils down to language barrier. TDM gameplay seems to prefer clever hidden clues in readables to relay information. I like this, it is better than an oblivion-style big red flashing arrow pointing where to go.

I totally agree. After all, games are supposed to be a challenge and not a consumer good. If you want simple consumer games, go buy yourself an xbox360... :P There was once a time where you actually had to buy maps inside the game, or look at street-signs and ask people where something is to be found (Outcast, Gothic, Morrowind), and today everybody is just too lazy to use their brains and want everything served on the silver tablet via a flashy HUD overlay. *puking smiley missing* Assassins Creed 2 for example would have been soooooo much better without all that bling-bling, but you have to appeal to the stupid masses, so that's just the way to go.

But hey, everytime I talk about this topic I get carried away and it's off-topic anyway, so let's just leave it at that. :)

Good idea with making the complex stuff optional, by the way.

#75 Melan

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:55 AM

There are two mutually incompatible wishes in this discussion:
1) There are people who want more complex maps from TDM, with more object interaction, something that would take hours of play to solve.
2) There are also people who want simpler maps which don't rely so much on puzzles (partially because of a language barrier that makes it hard to decipher hints).
It is not possible to have both simultaneously. On the other hand, fan missions can be built with different philosophies in mind: then, you will have maps that have a lot of puzzles and text-based clues (The Heart of Lone Salvation), you will have maps that are focused purely on exploration (Flakebridge Monastery), and maps that are different from these two.

Just like in the case of Dromed - where you have missions like Zontik's ultra-hard Golden Book or Eternauta's When Still, but also missions where you just have to explore and collect everything in view. This is not a mod issue. This is a mapping issue. It is a mistake to think there is a central direction in fan missions. There may have been one when the team were still building a common campaign - but they aren't doing that anymore.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved




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