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#76 Judith

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:04 AM

They can always pass a new bill to limit emigration, just like under communist rule. This would kick them out of UE, but the governing party doesn't seem to care about that. Cheap nationalism and neo-fascism is on the rise in Poland, which is a giant shame, considering its past. As someone sang, "History will teach us nothing".



#77 Anderson

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:16 AM

They can always pass a new bill to limit emigration, just like under communist rule. This would kick them out of UE, but the governing party doesn't seem to care about that. Cheap nationalism and neo-fascism is on the rise in Poland, which is a giant shame, considering its past. As someone sang, "History will teach us nothing".

 

History teaches nothing because everyone is so proficient in maths to divide the plunder.

 

I hope they won't limit emigration because despite how it seems to extinguish a nation's life, it actually has benefits with helping the economy and irreversibly helping things flow towards evening the odds with the rich countries over time. For example if Polish are now heading out for Western countries than many Ukrainians are going to Poland for work because Russia is now closed. The similar language and culture is a bonus. The loot isn't as good as in the West but at least people can get some variety and make better decisions in the long run.

 

Basically Poland has a good initiative with the US against Nord Stream 2 (talk about priorities with the environment and all that jazz). So it's not that bad.

 

But it's a shame that Poland still has abortion illegal. Just proves again that here things are not as in mostly successful atheistic-driven policies in former soviet countries and most socialist states. Only benefit Poland missed out on. Even Ireland legalized it.

 

In all candor with you conservative Catholicism isn't by any margin better than conservative Eastern Orthodoxy. Just different flavors of the same madness. Why can't people be balanced?


Edited by Anderson, 16 August 2018 - 05:18 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#78 Judith

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:46 AM

But it's a shame that Poland still has abortion illegal. Just proves again that here things are not as in mostly successful atheistic-driven policies in former soviet countries and most socialist states. Only benefit Poland missed out on. Even Ireland legalized it.

 

There was a big public pressure, with protests and demonstrations in the capital and in major cities, but they were ignored by the government. Not to mention that MPs from most influential parties are old and backwards, women MPs included. They won't yield to demands of modern 20-40 year olds. They fear changes, even if IMO the change isn't coming fast enough here. Wars and communism did a huge damage, not only in economy, but also in terms of slow social changes and backwards worldview. It may be 2018, but the world outside still looks like 1988 at best.

 

As for the church, it's still a major player, although its real influence is largely unknown. Kind of a state within a state. Attendance stats are declining, and definitely it's not like 90-something percent of the population is Catholic, it's just the church makes apostasy problematic and does everything to prevent it. Most people just give up, but don't attend mass anyway. Some time ago, government passed a Sunday trade ban bill, with every first and last Sunday in a month all shops are closed (as a transitional period, with the goal being all Sundays off). I can only guess that they hoped to have better church attendance, but all they got was more people in parks, cafes and restaurants. Poland should have made what Czech Republic did after the fall of communism: sever the ties with the church to make the state secular, and open all the secret archives to deal with the agent dirt once and for all.


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#79 Anderson

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 06:20 AM

 

There was a big public pressure, with protests and demonstrations in the capital and in major cities, but they were ignored by the government. Not to mention that MPs from most influential parties are old and backwards, women MPs included. They won't yield to demands of modern 20-40 year olds. They fear changes, even if IMO the change isn't coming fast enough here. Wars and communism did a huge damage, not only in economy, but also in terms of slow social changes and backwards worldview. It may be 2018, but the world outside still looks like 1988 at best.

 

As for the church, it's still a major player, although its real influence is largely unknown. Kind of a state within a state. Attendance stats are declining, and definitely it's not like 90-something percent of the population is Catholic, it's just the church makes apostasy problematic and does everything to prevent it. Most people just give up, but don't attend mass anyway. Some time ago, government passed a Sunday trade ban bill, with every first and last Sunday in a month all shops are closed (as a transitional period, with the goal being all Sundays off). I can only guess that they hoped to have better church attendance, but all they got was more people in parks, cafes and restaurants. Poland should have made what Czech Republic did after the fall of communism: sever the ties with the church to make the state secular, and open all the secret archives to deal with the agent dirt once and for all.

 

We also have government declared holidays ad-hoc over any excuse possible. For us it's more ridiculous though with both communist and religious holidays all becoming all of a sudden holidays. Starting from about 25'th of December (Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar) to 14'th January (according to Julian Calendar New Year's eve) it's basically Moldovan Ramadan. So it can always be worse! :D

 

The most depressing worldview one can take is that we have to wait 40 years like Mosses for all old men to die for change.

 

It is true here as well for church attendance rates going down, but overall it's just good business here so they're squeezing as much money as they can until it's not too late.

 

And again, Poland actually had post-communist Lustration which we did not. 


Edited by Anderson, 16 August 2018 - 06:21 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#80 Anderson

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 06:23 AM

We're talking about the rise of authoritarianism in Europe, but it's nothing compared to what Turkey gets. Hundreds of lawyers, judges, polcemen, military get trialed. Proves that a country with a muslim mentality, even if it's secular won't have things change :/

 

And of course when they get angry again they'll pour the river for migrants again and the show goes on.


Edited by Anderson, 16 August 2018 - 06:25 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#81 Anderson

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 06:59 AM

Back to the environment - stalemate wars and frozen conflicts help nature recover its resources not just in evacuated Chernobyl but also Ukraine and the situation is similar in my home Transnistria - https://www.nytimes....ar-hunting.html


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#82 Outlooker

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 03:12 PM

 

Operating with Citizen Kane clichés is highly disturbing Mr Outlooker.

But I tell you only this: everybody can say so until things hit the fan in your life personally. 

 

I've come to think that people only signal morality publicly to convince others better that they are valuable allies.

Much like when in public, under other people's eyes who judge us, we behave "better" than when in private: We do not pick our noses, keep our farts in, keep better posture, wear cleaner and better clothes than when in private.

Same with attitudes, especially socially signalled ones: We try to signal, here too, that we are better, more "moral", than we really are. It's just a show we do more or less automatically, which comes with our social instincts.

 

But in reality, people try to enslave or kill each other, and value their own well-being, own life much higher than other's.

 

Thought experiment:

 

A burning house, you can only save two people due to time restrictions:

 

A] Your own child  B] another person's child ---> you safe your own child obviously

 

Let's make it more interesting:

A] Your own child  B] two children of other people; or

B1] 10, or 100, or 1000, or 1 million other children

Now, that's not quite as easy anymore, isn't it?

 

Let's make it even more interesting:

A) Your own child, or even yourself  B] any number of other persons- BUT

now you can be sure that your decision will forever stay unknown to all other people (if you are religious, even to God) - 

you can be sure to be totally free from social judgment for your decision, that is, social pressure

 

Social pressure, your social instinct to signal being moral to others, has a large impact on how you feel and decide.

 

 

We find this scheme not only with picking one's nose or signalling moral behavior when being under social surveillance (the gaze of others), but with everything - women are promiscuous, but publicly pretend to be chaste; people are dishonest, but publicly pretend to be most honest; etc. 

 

 

So, people are actually not at all like they say or signal socially. We know it about ourselves, and if pointed out, see it in others, too.

 

 

But what if I told you that people actually do not care for the lives of others at all, that it is only a public show put out to invest in reciprocation, so that they appear as valuable allies deserving of trust and social investment?

YOU yourself have already killed people - by omission,  because your own well-being is more important to you than even the survival, the very life of others:

Reality is such, that you could have donated half your lung, half of your liver, or one of your two kidneys to other people and therefore have saved their life, with minimal risk to your own life.

You did not (as practically everybody else, too), you preferred to keep your redundant kidney and therefore caused the death of at least one person already.

This is obvious, and people prefer to avoid this topic, because they prefer to live in the illusion that they are very "moral", "good" people.

(Interestingly, if exposed to social pressure, like being exposed to a person dying from kidney disease, activates empathy, especially when, as pointed out above, a great number of people are watching you, for example if you were to find yourself in a TV show and you are asked, millions watching, if you would donate your kidney or condemn the poor sick person to death by refusing it  - then the likelihood would be much greater that you would donate a kidney, to comply with your public image as a "moral" person, while you privately would hate and regret your decision afterwards.)

 

See here:

Miles-Wagner.jpg

Somewhere others, children, are dying, because you prefer to not want to donate a piece of your redundant organs.

As soon as it gets personal, this fact becomes much more unpleasant, doesn't it? This is because your empathy is activated, and because you start to feel social pressure from social judgment of others.

 

 

The same principle not only applies to millions of sick people dying from the indifference of other people for their suffering and survival, their very life;

but also for, example, genocide and mass killings: People SAY, in public, when under social surveillance, that they care, to signal morality, but they privately do not; a new car, or new computer, or an school exam is much more important to them than the deaths of millions and millions of people far away, especially when those people are genetically different (=not family) or perceived as low-status (=unlikely to ever become useful for ourselves).

The Whore of England's, "Lady" Di's, death - a high-status female, salient due to media reporting - activated the deep sympathy (mass crying, oceans of flowers and stuffed teddy bears, oceans of candles, emotional mass hysteria) of millions and millions of people (mostly  females, though) in GB and word-wide - while the deaths from famine, easily and cheaply treatable diseases, and genocide  (Hutu/Tutsi) - the suffering and death of millions upon millions of people is ignored, usually only registered with annoyance and disgust, in an attempt to forget about it as quickly as possible, for example by distracting oneself with indulgence in a pleasurable undertaking (video game, food, ...).

 

I'm just pointing out how I see it is - I am not saying that this is "bad". I just want to demonstrate that what people actually do and are, and how they publicly pretend to be - even self-deceive themselves to be - is completely different.

 

 

 

 

And I propose that must be so, because

 

1.) people must actually try to enslave and kill others in the social war for reproduction and getting resources (making it through natural and sexual selection - all people alive must be those who successfully achieved both)

 

2.) people must pretend to be better than they really are ("moral", altruistic, caring for others) to better convince others that they are valuable allies deserving investment (social pressure, because we are a highly social species).

 

Therefore, morals are a big deception, social and personal propaganda to unify the conflicting behavioral goals of 1) and 2) - and this is the reason hypocrisy is so common it's the norm, but a hidden norm.

 

 

 

 


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
"When outmatched... cheat." Batman

#83 Anderson

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:05 AM

 

 

Operating with Citizen Kane clichés is highly disturbing Mr Outlooker.

But I tell you only this: everybody can say so until things hit the fan in your life personally. 

 

 

 

And I propose that must be so, because

 

1.) people must actually try to enslave and kill others in the social war for reproduction and getting resources (making it through natural and sexual selection - all people alive must be those who successfully achieved both)

 

2.) people must pretend to be better than they really are ("moral", altruistic, caring for others) to better convince others that they are valuable allies deserving investment (social pressure, because we are a highly social species).

 

Therefore, morals are a big deception, social and personal propaganda to unify the conflicting behavioral goals of 1) and 2) - and this is the reason hypocrisy is so common it's the norm, but a hidden norm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) What if they chose not to and instead went for adoption or something? What about homosexuality in humans and other animals? We always makes comparisons to other animals as a reflection of ourselves, but we ought to have more studies on us as a species. E.g. female brains are better at inventory and sorting items while male brains have better capacity to orient themselves in environments and better at path finding.

 

2) I think it's more common in cosmopolitan societies with people who want to climb the social ladder by any means necessary. But it doesn't mean all people want that.

In a way people from the village are happier and there are frequent cases of people "making it" getting the money they need and just retiring to the countryside and being healthier and happier for it. Because lots of cities are a depressing mess.

 

The human brain is not wired to know more than 100-200 people from their "tribe". Cities are deeply discomforting from that point of views.

 

Therefore I'm making the argument that your ideas are a perversion of the inability to make an abstraction out of this discomfort in large cities and disregard this irritation. TL: DR - everyone needs a relax at nature once in a while unless they get a stroke first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Operating with Citizen Kane clichés is highly disturbing Mr Outlooker.

But I tell you only this: everybody can say so until things hit the fan in your life personally. 

 

 

Thought experiment:

 

A burning house, you can only save two people due to time restrictions:

 

A] Your own child  B] another person's child ---> you safe your own child obviously

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is incorrect to make the statement under the title of absolute truth that a person is selfish, greedy, immoral if they want to help their own kin, sometimes by sacrificing those of a random stranger. Because the idea of absolute truth in a situation like this depends on the exact circumstances of each case. It is not to say that there are no absolute truths in philosophy overall (such as Jesus being tolerant towards everyone). However the number of absolute truths is much lower than what your abstraction predilects.

 

Here's the bullet point - we are only weak humans. We can't save everyone. What I propose is that it's the moral and legal fault of the person who exposed that baby you mention to this danger. But I am not a firefighter. It is not my obligation to save anyone. If I can good, if not - c'est la vie. Also, in most cases one doesn't know if he chooses to save 1 person first, if the other will die by that time. Either way Liberalism says that all people are equal. So who gets to die matters little in the end.

 

It's sad of course that there are orphans who will never get fostered but it's a shitty world we live in. That's an important truth which saves us a lot of time. We shouldn't presume automatically people of them having good intentions. What is important though is to give and acknowledge that everyone has a chance that they can use once in a while to do the right thing. 

 

Every time there's this philosophical thing going on, always remember that the human brain has a limited capacity to think of things simultaneously. Only 2 or 3 major things in a day concurrently. So why should we blame ourselves for our natural flaws? Let's think rather what's important for us in the moment, pertaining to our responsibilities and our lives personally. Carpe diem. Dixi.


Edited by Anderson, 19 August 2018 - 09:09 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#84 Judith

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 09:46 AM

Don't get sucked in by Outlookers bullshit, it only looks like rational or logical. He'll crawl out of the woodwork anytime he has opportunity to do so in topics like that, these are his favorite outlet (he doesn't post anywhere else or contribute anything). He has huge gaps in education i.e. he wouldn't say anything silly like that on morality if he read (and understood) Kant for example. Morality isn't about appearing right in society, or feeling good because of doing the right thing.


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#85 Anderson

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 10:25 AM

Don't get sucked in by Outlookers bullshit, it only looks like rational or logical. He'll crawl out of the woodwork anytime he has opportunity to do so in topics like that, these are his favorite outlet (he doesn't post anywhere else or contribute anything). He has huge gaps in education i.e. he wouldn't say anything silly like that on morality if he read (and understood) Kant for example. Morality isn't about appearing right in society, or feeling good because of doing the right thing.

 

I also have a weakness with pointless blah blah blah on topics that have nothing to do with day to day life to be honest :D

 

 

 

 

Question

 

 

 

Okay, I have a question too. Since when should people expect that someone owes them something? Even if one is Mother Theresa, one shouldn't expect reciprocity either when in danger or work or any other favors. World is cruel mostly as in the friends we choose, family we have and in our inability at independent life/self-defense. These generate most of our unhappy incidents in life.


Edited by Anderson, 19 August 2018 - 10:25 AM.

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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#86 RPGista

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 09:52 AM

Ok so I dont wanna add to some of the extreme content that has been made present in this thread, and I only read the reasonable posts.

 

I kinda like Sotha's conclusion, it was uber pragmatic, just as you would expect coming from a science guy. I mean it in a good way.

 

I just wanna talk a bit about how we perceive science, its something that keeps coming up in conversations like these. You see people using advanced technology, computers, radios, mobile phones, global networks, etc. to express their distrust and disbelief about science, and to feed on information that reinforces it. You see people that never had polio, telling other people about the dangers of vaccination. You see a lot of stuff like that. They drive cars, they travel on planes, they use gps, they go to the hospital to be treated or operated upon, and yet they dont trust "science". Its easy for us to get on our high horse and defend the scientific culture that gave us every single material advancement we have, and most of the social ones as well. That is obviously true. But why do they fear science then? Im not gonna go into the phsychological background here, dont have the expertise. And for sure, most people obssessed with stopping scientific progress are dishonest lobbyists working for private interests or are simply deluded (they can be brainwashed by ideologies, or it could be for religious reasons, and other traditional dogmas). But we also know that science is used to test what happens when you drop corrosive chemicals on a rabbit's eye. Or how to allow for caged animals to be kept barely alive so they can then be slaughtered for mass consumption. Like Richard Dawkins once said, science is the best method to get any result you want. It can indeed be used for good, and for bad. If you want to save the planet, science is what you need. If you want to know how to best torture prisioners, theres a scientific method to get you there. Of course, you need to be completely biased to stress this side view, and ignore the vast majority of cases where science is and has been wholly beneficial. But a lot of people will do just that.

 

So I think we should be talking not only about science, but rather a view of the world which will include this benevolent scientific drive we all desire. We remember watching cartoons and seeing it in pop culture, that in the future robots would do all the work for us and science would solve all our problems. This was coming from a time where people thought that the point of science was to benefit all of mankind. But because of our current "philosophical" world view, most of this power and potential was captured by markets. Machines work for big corporations, not for the benefit of others, and will in fact drive many to unemployment in the coming years, which will only worsen the picture. This will probably be true for generations to come, if this waste isnt discussed. We as people have become increasingly cynical and isolated and egotistical, because thats what we see working in our environment. Thats what is rewarded. I think the thing today is for people to get into the conversation about how we actually want to organize ourselves, what values do we want to push foward, the liberties we need to protect, that kind of stuff. Its a good time to do that.


Edited by RPGista, 20 August 2018 - 09:54 AM.

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#87 Anderson

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 02:48 PM

Aye, overall we must seek ways to express our discontent in reasonable ways without knee jerk reactions to everyday stress:

 


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#88 Judith

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 12:51 AM

To change the tone and find some consolation in all this ;)

 

 

 


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#89 Carnage

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 11:59 PM

Answer to Q1: You have to take the things that are said in the media with a huge amount of salt (not just believing everything you read). It's important to remember that an enormous amount of money is associated with the whole global warming thing and in our current world the one who screams the loudest and has the most followers, is the one who is heard. Global warming is obviously a thing, but IMO is not something you and I are going to notice or even the next few generations. In a town close to my home town they have been measuring the low and high tides consistently for the last +100 years and except for small differences that were a few centimeters higher and lower in some years, the water level hasn't changed at all. The below article is a bit 'old' (2004), but it explains the average temperatures and the other factors than us very good IMO (season of the earth [not our seasons], activity of the sun, etc). Nature usually has ways of stabilizing things and before each ice age we had peak temperatures as well. IMO the history of the earth shows that future generations will have to worry more about the temperature declining again instead of the current increase.

 

https://jancovici.co...-the-past-ones/

 

To conclude my opinion on Q1: try to help the earth where you can by keeping your personal pollution within a reasonable minimum (driving a 'clean' car, not dumping your rubbish, etc.), but other than that, just live a normal life and don't worry too much about these things and let the media just do their thing. In the end they are all here to make money.

 

Answer to Q2: IMO survival skills are always good (regardless of climate change) and I think everyone should know how to survive in the wild with limited resources (building shelters that protect against the elements with the things you have around you, hunting, etc). You never know what will happen in your life and those skills might be the difference between surviving and not.

 

Answer to Q3: Make sure you know how to survive with limited resources, tools to make fire, cut wood, hunt (rifle, but know how to hunt with bow and arrow and spear and how to make your own), fish (again, know how to make your own fishing pole), food with lots of preservatives, This is of course an answer to a worst case scenario, which I don't think our generation has to worry about, but again these things are always good to know and have, because you never know what might happen in your life.

 

Edit: Bit late to the party after reading most of the comments, but wanted to give my two cents about the subject.


Edited by Carnage, 29 August 2018 - 12:29 AM.

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#90 Outlooker

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 01:51 PM

I'm bringing this thread up because I happened on a piece of information I think is highly relevant and instructive regarding Sotha's OP question about survival preparedness;

it appears to be valuable advice on what to expect during civilizational breakdown based on genuine experience from the breakdown of the UdSSR/Bosnia between 1992 and 1995.

The picture is somewhat large, so I put it in here:

Spoiler

 

Further, climate change may not be all that terrible, after all - at least the rising CO2 concentration has lead to a global growth spurt of trees:

 

https://www.nasa.gov...-greening-earth

 

https://psmag.com/en...id-35-years-ago

 

 

And while this is not directly connected to the issue discussed, this little video still is somewhat associated  and more reason for optimism; it shows a solar-powered agricultural robot that automatically

picks or individually sprays weeds in a field, greatly saving on herbicides compared to whole-field spraying:

https://twitter.com/...398755495075843

 


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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
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#91 Fidcal

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 02:45 PM

Another piece of info which, if I understand correctly, suggests the warming effect may be delayed because heat from a hotter body cools faster than a cooler one. I seem to recall this as the thermal gradient effect - the steeper the gradient, the faster things roll downhill. So as the heat gradient gets steeper...  

 

https://phys.org/new...arth-space.html
                     


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#92 Outlooker

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 05:59 AM

DorZVdhX0AENV00.jpg


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
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#93 Skaruts

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 02:10 AM

Once upon a time oil was peaking. Then they came up with fracking and the problem was gone. This plays out all around, people always come up with something. Need is what drives innovation the most. I once heard an economist say that the only resource that really really matters is imagination, and that's pretty much infinite. And the more I learn about these things the more I think he's right.

 

Increased consumption is what drives production costs and prices down and standards of living up, etc. Welfare is built on the premise that people need it, but it exists at the cost of the rest of the people or at the cost of debt, and contributes to lower productivity and employment rates. It distorts the economy. 

 

Global warming is expected to cause crises, wars and famine.... Or just different lifestyles with different booming industries. Who really knows? Look at all the inventive entrepreneurs that gave a shot at replacing combustion engines when oil was thought to be peaking. I suspect the cooling systems industries will be booming in 20 or 30 years. Among others. Who knows what people will come up with. Maybe we walk through refrigerated tubes to our car, and then to work. Consumerism today will be what keeps your standards of living high enough that you can buy what you'll need then.

 

Climate change may just cause the markets to shift. People sort themselves out and figure out ways to survive. Even though the climate change is happening faster than natural ones, that doesn't mean people can't adapt. It's not like it's happening from night to day.

 

Maybe many people will die. Or maybe people will come up with ways to save many people from dying.

 

There might be some political instability and divisiveness, but then there always is... We're living it as we speak. Politics and political systems have still not evolved beyond that.

 

Also, you never know when AI programming will actually be useful to solve serious problems. You do your thing and your kids do their thing. Those that do their thing do it best, and are most useful in that way. 

 

I think you ought to be saving your bottle caps though. :) That threat is just as eminent. 



#94 stumpy

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 03:35 AM

we are coming to the end of an ice age the one that started to melt 15,000 years ago, so ice is going to melt and raise the seas, global warming is like sitting in front of a runaway bulldozer and expecting it to stop in the last few inches/centimeters.before getting squished, or standing on front of a 60 mph moving train and expecting it to stop on a dime when it actually takes 2 miles to stop.



#95 Sotha

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 07:28 AM

Thanks for the Bosnia story. That was an exiting read! I wonder how it would play out in a Finnish city, where -because of legislation- only police, military, registered hunters and shooters, and criminals have guns.

If the officials confiscate weapons in the early days from honest folks, that means only police, military and criminals have guns.

I suppose the correct maneuver would be to get out of cities to the countryside just *before* the shit hits the fan. And like the Bosnia story writer said, everything happens too fast.
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#96 stumpy

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 09:28 AM

well i've got enough tinned fish to last 5 years if it comes to that.



#97 Outlooker

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 10:59 AM

Here, have a quote from one of the experts at the core of the issue:

 

1539093738413.png


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
"When outmatched... cheat." Batman

#98 Skaruts

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:06 AM

Do I smell socialism there?



#99 RPGista

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:26 AM

Jeebus, guys. Easy on the paranoia stuff, lets all read more, why dont you opt for peer reviewed articles and analysis from responsible sources instead of the usual plataforms? Be a bit suspicious of whatsapp, facebook bubbles and other echo chambers. If someone tells you exactly what you wanna hear, scrutinize that guy, because if someone is trying too hard to convince you, maybe he doesnt want you to make up your own mind. Science has been warning about the likely effects of global warming for decades. Its a public fact that corporations have used massive amounts of resources and political persuasion to bury that, and keep business as usual as the norm. We have seen it everywhere, in the tobacco history for example (but maybe you dont believe that evidence either). Think what you want about socialist conspiracies and green utopias and what not, but people will continue to, for no personal gain, try to warn others about the consequences of continuing on the path we are now being led, while others will continue to, for a lot of financial gain and institutional support, spread misinformation to preserve the status quo. And thats whats gonna happen, what we can observe historically, no matter what we choose to believe.


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#100 Outlooker

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 01:03 PM

A website with a quick glance at the data:

 

http://www.climateda...carbon-dioxide/

 

 

Here the c(CO2) of the past:

 

stacks-image-feda935-800x524.png

 

 

 

I see a pattern here comparable to that of plastics-pollution of the oceans:

Almost all of it stems from China and India, while Western populations are led to believe/feel the West is the leading polluter,

using this lie then as a pretext to necessitate higher taxes (and bans of plastics, like the ridiculous plastic straw ban in California, which does nothing but

soothe "liberal minds" and adds costs to Western consumers):

 

https://www.scientif...-in-the-oceans/

https://www.verdict....stic-pollution/

 

Western countries pollute negligibly, because we recycle, use landfills, and ecologically safe garbage-incineration plants.

 

Again:

I'm also all for keeping the environment as clean and healthy as feasible, but  I prefer effective and efficient measures, not propaganda frauds that are just pretexts to redistribute income and wealth.

 

 


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
"When outmatched... cheat." Batman




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