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I should remind you that my Unoffcial Patch already includes another way to instantly extinguish candles in holders by making the candle a seperate entity that can be frobed. This might be a way out of this problem...

One issue I really see with saying "just click to shoulder body" is that clicking again does not drop it. Right now the player has to press Enter to shoulder the body, so it is logical to press Enter to unshoulder it. But as soon as we try to simplify it and move shouldering to the same mouse button, it would be natural to expect that player should unshoulder with the same mouse button too. But it does not happen by default. It is indeed possible to unshoulder on click. That's what @Wellingtoncrab said is already done with the patch, although it did not work for me when I tried --- perhaps I messed something up. The real issue is that player might also want to frob doors when body is shouldered, so now opening doors and unshouldering body gets mixed together. It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange. And I think there is no perfect way around it.

I think not. The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle. The old scheme is bad because frob is by default on mouse, and use is by default on keyboard, so doing click + keypress + click feels awful. As for discoverability, only the proper tutorial mission can really solve all the problems. You have something like 4 pending changes right now. Perhaps you commit the other three (which are less radical) to trunk, then I'll make a dev build of it, and then I'll apply your patch and create a test build (also in tdm_installer) with frob changes? Then I can do the same with double-clicking prototype.

You have made this clear. You do not need to say it over and over again. It may be “consistent” in some way but it is not the solution these other immersive sims came up with and it is confusing and frustrating to some players. Do you have an issue with players having an option to play this way? Even the patched version in its current state already includes an option to keep the original behavior for players like you. In the current patch food handling is not changed. The idea that a certain thing is “forced” by the frob action again is the complete opposite of the point that it is a context sensitive control. It should do what makes sense in the context of the game. Food can be eaten but it’s also a physics object - so I don’t see it as inconsistent that the primary is pick it up on frob and consume it in place with long press/double click whatever. I can see the other side to. It’s a good question.

Not to be a nag, but I was thinking about the columns problem. If you go to the view source tab in the wiki article: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Missions_for_The_Dark_Mod&action=edit The raw table data is accessible directly: |- !align=left|{{TDM-FM|written|Written in Stone}} |Bikerdude, Amadeus, Dragofer |{{Forumlink|https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21265-written-in-stone-beta-210-only-20220128/}} |2022-01-28 |338 |Yes |Yes |CCC 22, Elixir |City Missions |Undead, Horror Themes |- Each pipe character represents one of the columns.

I coded this up tonight to try out the idea. I think you're right. It does feel better and more consistent. Candle/Lantern (in world, not picked up) Quick-press frob to pick up. Long-press frob to extinguish (or toggle on/off). Candle/Lantern (in hands, already picked up) Quick-press frob to drop. Long-press frob to extinguish (or toggle on/off). I'll do a bit more testing tomorrow, and if all goes well, I'll update the patch.

After a long time and a lot of delays, I'm extremely happy and relieved to announce the release date for my first map; Lords & Legacy, on Friday the 30th of August, 2013! Lords & Legacy v.2.1 Resume: Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/Lj8UJ#0 Notes: Build time: 2013/03/30 - 2013/08/30 To install, simply put the .pk4 file in your fm folder and install from the in-game mission menu. It is a large mission with optional objectives, so make sure to save often. The ropes in the beginning have a 'slick' surface, to simulate being 'slack lines'. They are difficult, but once you get a hang of the slide they can be fun. A couple of the large areas can be a bit rough on performance, and can be improved by adjusting the LOD slider in video options. A few of visportals open only when you get close. This is to keep the frames smooth inside the respective building, due to early inexperienced design. If you find any bugs which affect the gameplay experience, then you're very welcome to post them here, but please use the spoiler tags. Big thanks to 'Obsttorte', 'Springheel', 'Greyman', 'Bikerdude', 'Sotha' and rest of 'The Dark Mod Team'for all the help, guides and tricks. Also thanks to the other TDM users who provided fantastic support and feedback during the build. Thank you for beta-testing: 'Bikerdude', 'TylerVocal', 'Simplen00b', 'nbohr1more', 'Briareos H.' Special thanks to: 'Danus', 'Dsx' & 'Stanleh' for testing, help and support. v.2.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -The "Master Thief" challenge was impossible to do for a while, due to incorrect values. Fixed. -Getting seen by "The Killer" now also fails the "Ghost" challenge. -The 3 cardplaying guards no longer float mid air, as their chairs are now nailed to the floor. -Fixed the sound of the furnace continuing after the flames were extinguished. -Fixed weird glittering on the power cables around the map. -Fixed some moonlight popping in and out. -Fixed openable windows in Commons, clipping into the frame. -Fixed a book dropping through a desk. -Fixed visportals closing too close in Lancel's Tower, slight hit on performance though. -Added more monsterclip to Service Tower and Robert's Tower's entrance. -Improved a few vis_portals with func_portals. -Replaced curbs in Slums and Commons with some more detailed versions and changed textures. And a lot more little unecessary tweaks. Gameplay: -Added new challenge: (Jack White) - Do not knock-out anyone. -Reduced the amount of starting gear, depending on difficulty. -Added cubemaps to most windows on the map. -Redid most func_statics in Commmons Quarter to reduce tris and increase performance. Draw count is still somewhat high. -Removed all transparent windows as they didn't have actual gameplay value, just a performance drain in exchange for glitchy visuals. -Lancel's safe can no longer be picked. Find the key! -Added a couple minor cosmetic details in the sewers. -Moved a coinpurse from a wealthy commoner's sleeping butt to his nightside table. Also adjusted his furniture so thieves can better move around. -Changed sounds for several doors across the map. Once again, a big thanks to 'Bikerdude' for taking the time help out and locate room for improvement! v.2.0 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed various textures and surfaces and a few minor tweaks. -Tweaked some sounds to be in line with TDM 2.0 changes. -Fixed 2 certain AIs being too sensitive rather than drunk. (Thanks to AluminumHaste!) -Tweaked LOD on some objects, to prevent windows "popping" in and out. Gameplay: -Added more monsterclip to the towers, so the AI can now run up and down stairs. Only the stairs in the small tower has issues still. -Added more monsterclip in the city so the guards can follow you up all stairs. -Added a few minor details. -Windows in the city now dims sound, resulting in less aggro from guards and more convincing soundscape. -Reduced 'draw calls' in all the large areas, increasing performance. The map is still heavy at certain areas. Another big thanks to 'Bikerdude' and 'Greyman', for taking time out of their own schedules to help optimize the map's draw count and other significant adjustements! v.1.0.3 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed 4 black chairs in one of the towers -Fixed a floating painting -Fixed several clipping objects v.1.0.2 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed zfighting in the library's bookshelves -Fixed a black window in one of the towers -Fixed several typos in readables Gameplay: v.1.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed an issue with the main objectives not being in "sync". -Fixed console spam from a script Gameplay: -Adjusted required loot for each difficulty from "3000, 4000 and 5000" to "2500, 3500 and 4500".

Terrific! The beta test thread is up: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22238-beta-testing-the-spider-and-the-finch/

@AluminumHaste Could you please make a new build? (Should be the last one.) I've updated the patch to fix a bug when auto-search bodies is enabled and delay is 0, and I removed the "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar. After talking with a player on Discord, I changed the default delay to 200ms. Seems like that will also work well with your preference of 250ms. Pros of 200ms: Dragging a body doesn't feel sluggish. Putting out a candle is pretty fast. Cons of 200ms: New players might make a mistake (at first or without some practice). But will probably be ok. I think using 200ms, which I know is good, is better than going with my original assumption. If players have trouble during dev or beta, it can be changed back to 300ms. Better that I go with data than assumptions.

@AluminumHaste I've updated the patch (same link as before): https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794 Added "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar: "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior", default:"1" Which drag body behavior? 1 --- on frob key up, drop body (limb). 0 --- on second frob, drop body (limb), TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Added drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. (Not thoroughly tested, but it seems to be working as intended.) Could you please update the build?

Unlike Thief, The Dark Mod allows you to interact with things like doors/switches when you are shouldering a body. So there needs to be an input to do this, so I see why this is preserved. Playing the patch I do agree my thief muscle memory kicked in almost immediately and I kept expecting frob to the drop the body. Not sure what a good solution is in this case. Dropping a body is the primary action when shouldering it, so maybe it should be inverted (frob drops body, "use-item" allows world interaction when carrying body) Not sure if this will also be confusing.

That would be great! Thank you! Already done: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316 (Also, included the patch link just now.)

Though I would suggest that you open a feature request bug tracker (bugs.thedarkmod.com) and post this patch there, just so devs can be notified if they don't see this thread,

If I can get the patch to play nice with my local copy I can upload binaries here for you guys to try.

The patch is game engine code (C++) and not scripts/defs, so yes, you are right. TDM will need to be recompiled.

Am I right that this patch need the game itself to be recompiled or is it possible to add it only with scripts and defs?

I see. I would never leave an interact prompt like that on Enter, that's so far away from both hands. In some games where I can't bind if to a mouse key, I would make it E or F or somewhere on that part of the keyboard. I'll try the patch tonight.

This is a very good argument and I actually had to adjust my patch to not break this mission. What I did is that only candles in holders are extinguished when frobbed directly. If you frob the holder, it is taken and the candle stays lit.

It's not hard. Nor would it be hard if you had to simultaneously hold down 3 different key modifiers, or enter a sequence of 5 directional inputs timed with key presses like a fighting game combo, and yet I bet you would agree that would be ridiculous. For any software there is value in streamlining the most common interactions thathas nothing to do with accessibility. When most players click a body 95% of the time they don't want to nudge around the limbs, they want to pick it up and move it. When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out. It doesn't make sense for these most common interactions to require 2 actions when they could require just 1. That's not to say that this is a obligatory change that will massively improve the quality of the game. You are right that it is a very minor thing, but if the willingness exists to create a patch to change it then it seems like a no-brainer to make it the default. That's my interpretation of this thread.

Welcome to the Dark Mod forums MarsManon! Thank you very much for the kind words about SLL, it's always nice to hear We all worked real hard on bringing Grayman's map to life and I'm glad you enjoyed it

I was so enchanted by this FM, I had to sign up to the forums the same day I finished it to come thank the authors Genuinely, truly incredible work! I was so overwhelmed in places that I resorted to just shouting joy at my monitor two, three, maybe four entirely separate times while playing. Exploring, puzzling, finding something new, trying to use it, and finding it does a whole new, separate, wonderful thing! There aren't enough words inside me to describe the feeling. It was breathtaking. I don't have any specific feedback that hasn't come through this thread before Thanks so much for making this, for all the inspiration and ingenuity and effort it took. If I never play another level this good, in any other game, in my life, I'd be fine with that.

Ulysses 2: Protecting the Flock By Sotha The mission starts some time after the events of Ulysses: Genesis, and continues the story of Ulysses. It is a medium sized mission with a focus on stealthy assassinations and hostage liberation. BUILD TIME: 12/2014 - 05/2015 CREDITS The TDM Community is thanked for steady supply of excellent mapping advice. Thanks goes also to everyone contributing to TDM! Voice Actors: Goldwell (as Goubert and Ulysses), Goldwell's Girlfriend (as Alis) Betatesters: Airship Ballet, Ryan101. Special Thanks to: Springheel and Melan (for proofreading). Story: Read & listen it in game. Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwR0ORZU5sraRGduUWlVRmtsX3c/view?usp=sharing Other: Spoilers: When discussing, please use spoiler tags, like this: [spoiler] Hidden text. [/spoiler] Mirrors: Could someone put this on TDM ingame downloader? Thanks!

@datiswous, made that correction fm_test.subs --> fm_conversations.subs @stgatilov, about srt naming and file location, would you be OK with the following edit? New/changed stuff in italics: srt command is followed by paths to a sound sample and its .srt file, typically with matching filenames. An .srt file is usually placed either with its sound file or in a "subtitles" folder. The .srt file format is described e.g. [1]. The file must be in engine-native encoding (internationalization is not supported yet anyway) and have no BOM mark. It contains a sequence of text messages to show during the sound sample, each with start and end timestamps within the sample's timeline. It is recommended to use common software to create .srt files for sound samples, instead of writing them manually. This way is more flexible but more complicated, and it is only necessary for long sounds, for instance sound sample of a briefing video. It's a simple enough standard that it can be shown as an short example, demonstrating that subtitle segments can have time gaps between them. And the example can show correct TDM usage, without requiring a trip off-site and picking through features that TDM doesn't support. Specifically, the example shows how to define two lines by direct entry, rather than using unsupported message location tags (X1, Y1, etc.). And skips other unavailable SRT font markups like italics, mentioned in the wikipedia description. The example would also show the TDM-specific path treatment. The example could be inserted before the sentence "It is recommended to use common software...."

No problem with crashes, maybe GPU related, but anyway nice to know about the patch. Some parts of the game remember to TDM, related to stealth, rope-arrows, among others, some environments could have been perfectly from some TDM missions. Maybe someone can "steal" some ideas for a future TDM mission