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This is my list of all the changes I think the dark mod could benefit greatly from.

 

-being able to climb left and right when grabbing onto ledges, just before getting up.

 

I believe this would added another dimension to exploration and make for some interesting secrete areas.

 

This could be achieved so: A subtle visual indicator and a light noise could tell the player that they are climbing an object. They can either move left or right along the ledge with the strafe buttons, or press crouch to fall or c to climb higher onto the top of the ledge.

the player’s bounding box should thin.

 

-A hook/ trinket at the end of the rope arrow. (Perhaps an alternate fire option)

 

This could make exploration with rope arrows more interesting, and force the player to think carefully.

 

This could be achieved so: There are 2 phases to the weapon, just like there are 2 phases to a detonator. First the player attaches the trinket end of the rope arrow to a piece of wood, and then fires the actual arrow across a way and onto another plank. The rope will automatically adjust the length. The player can then walk or climb (depending on whether any of the following are accepted) along the rope, which I will explain in the next 2 proposition.

 

-Thin platform balance.

 

This is another way of adding dimension to gameplay, as well as strengthening the last suggestion.

 

This could be achieved so: Anyone ever played mirror’s edge? Like mirrors edge, it could be done in the dark mod similarly. The player can move onto a thin platform eg, rope, wire, pole, pipe etc, and use the strafe keys to keep balance.

 

-Climbing along thin platforms

 

This one is much better than the previous, but I just want to get all my ideas out there.

I believe that this will again add dimension.

 

This could be achieved so: like the edge strafe above, this could allow the player to strafe along a thin object. To do this, the player walks onto the rope, and as he falls, the c button allows the player to grab hold of the rope. Or the player just stands below and jumps up to it or presses c. When on the rope, the player can use the mouse to turn to either face the rope, the side of the rope, or the other side, allowing the player to see what’s going on, on each side. Moving forward would make the player move faster, because he can’t see to the left and right, and he can do a fluid hand by hand movement. Strafing along the rope is slowing for obvious reasons, but not only does it allow the player to see what’s going on, but it also allows them to swing, as they’d do on a rope, except much more stable. The player can lift himself for a limited amount of time (the longer he holds it the better), then when a guard walks by, he can swing down on the guard below, knocking him out.

 

-Neck snapping

 

This will give the player an extra choice of morality and a little flexibility if he doesn’t have his black jack, or if he just needs to kill someone nice and quietly. If the player doesn’t have the black jack, this is a fairly drastic way to take someone out, especially if the player is awarded for less killing, more knocking out.

 

This could be achieved so: The player would have to move a little closer than he would if he wanted to nail them with a black jack, so it would be very hard to do if the enemy is walking. Then, the player can use the manipulate button ( :D) to kill him, but the enemy must be unaware of you’re presence, or it will not even do any damage.

 

-More thief-like awareness

 

I liked thief because taking people out was easy and often very satisfying, because you felt powerful. It’s really annoying when you sneak up and hit someone only to find out that they were just aware of you enough for you’re crack to the noggin to be more like a gentle nudge, which is obscene. This needs improvement.

 

This could be achieved so: The guard should not notice you for at least 5 seconds after he grows suspicious of you unless you are directly in his cone of site, by which time you will have to clobber him with no more than 2 blows. This is time he will not have to tense up, he will be confused and un aware of you’re form and figure, so he will not expect to be knocked out so quickly, after 2 seconds of suspicion, you should be able to knock him out with one blow. In general, try reducing the overall hearing of enemies to about 80-90 percent of the original value.

 

-Better combat

 

I don’t (and I know that many other people don’t,) like having to fight people in this mod, but it’s good to have the flexibility if you run out of options. There are a few things that bug me about combat. One, the enemies take a real beating, but you only take 3 hits, lame. Two, when you try and step back, enemies will run very close into you creating a feeling of claustrophobia. It makes it hard to know what he’ll do next. It’s also very unlikely that someone would do such a thing. Three, you should not have to move the mouse to hit in different directions; this makes it very hard to keep an eye on the enemies next move, and can be confusing to perform. If you were fighting someone with a sword, would you like to have to move you’re head radically in the opposite direction to you’re enemy while trying to hit him? No you wouldn’t, you’d want to watch where his extremely sharp blade was. Four, even when you get good at combat, it still kicks you in the balls every so often, in which I mean, the enemy will suddenly break the relatively intuitive pattern and stab you, and you won’t see it coming before it’s too late. This is -badly designed and needs improvement.

 

This could be achieved so #1: When swinging a weapon in a certain direction, you must press and hold attack button, which holds the camera in place, then move the mouse to swing. This will allow you to keep the camera on you’re enemy.

 

This could be achieved so #2: When swinging a weapon in a certain direction, you must press and hold the ‘H’ (or what ever is closest to the move w, a, s, d keys and available) button, which temporarily switches the use of the mouse from view mode to weapon direction mode, in which you get a little curser that you move around you’ve view which moves with you’re sword and let’s you know where you’re sword will hit. When ready to hit, you just press and hold the mouse and move it in a certain direction. You can also block a certain spot. Perhaps it would even be necessary to visually indicate where the enemy will thrust his weapon and where you can block it, in case he changes the Pattern and you need to think fast.

 

This could be achieved so #3:

Hold the attack button to raise your sword, press and hold either the ‘q’, ‘e’, ‘r’ or ‘f’ button while letting go to change direction. Letting go with ‘q’ will allow a left blow, letting go with ‘e’ will allow a right blow, letting go with ‘r’ will allow an overhead slash and letting go with ‘f’ will allow a stab.

This is intuitive, because it compliments the rest of the game’s controls.

 

This could be achieved so #4:

Hold the attack button to raise your sword, press either the ‘q’, ‘e’, ‘r’ or ‘f’ buttons to attack in a different direction. Pressing ‘q’ will allow a left blow, pressing ‘e’ will allow a right blow, pressing ‘r’ will allow an overhead slash and pressing ‘f’ will allow a stab.

This is intuitive, because it compliments the rest of the game’s controls.

(the following good, but not vital) The same for blocking, except with the manipulate (middle mouse button) instead.

(I strongly suggest this one, as it’s the easiest to pull off, and also easier to perform in game.)

 

THERE now there’s no excuse why combat can’t be improved.

 

-Better doors

 

well, this is something I’m sure you’ve already considered, but just in case…

The doors are pretty annoying, they automatically swing towards and then away from the door frame each time you interact with them, EG #1-iteract=swing left, #2-interact=swing right, #3-interact=swing left etc, etc… and because you often run into them, you need to press them twice again to get through, after taking a step back.

This is not a major problem, but I think this should be put on the to do list, as a minor problem. I just think, that this is a great mod, and little things like that seem to shine through the cracks of otherwise fun game-play.

 

why not make doors affected by physics, they can pivot on the location of the hinges and when closed, be labeled as static. You can either push them by walking into them, or interact with them to make them swing round as far as they’ll go with a fair amount of force.

 

-slightly longer arm reach

 

This effects both general item manipulation and combat. Like when you need to crawl onto a table to retrieve an item that you should be able to reach, or crawl on top of a chest to get what’s inside, this is a shame. When you hit people in this mod I think just a little more reach would allow for a smoother experience.

 

-sharper object selection

 

Basically just, you can interact with exactly what you're point at, regardless of what's next to it. I mean, how many times have you picked up an object only to pick up something next to it which made noise and attracted enemies? (check further below technical explanation for further exploration of the idea*)

 

This could be achieved so: by taking the piece of code that determines that you've shot someone (like the doom 3 pistol) and using it to detect an object that you're looking at, when ever you press the interact key.

 

-* Item's (bottles, candles) don't make noise (or much, or to an enemy) unless you throw or drop them after picking them up.

 

There's no point in an item making noise if it was completely accidental, especially if you pick up the wrong item by mistake or when you point to low and pick it up, it scrapes on the surface and attracts attention. (perhaps a code that lifts it above the surface when you pick it up)

 

Honestly, i wouldn't know how to describe this any further than it has been.

 

Members, read this and tell me what you think by copying the title of each idea, then underneath saying Yes, no or maybe and if you like, what you think.

EG:

 

-eating dirt...

No

because dirt tastes bad.

 

If your feeling particularly lazy or tired, just tell me what you think. It's just so that any team members who run into this get a good idea of what people generally consider lacking about the already almost perfect mod.

Edited by Mr Lemony Fresh
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in reality doors open into a room, and only screen doors open outwards, this is something the player should know, and in some case the map builder should know, although in some case the map builder doesn't know or comes from somewhere hot where door inside buildings either slide or dont exist. The way a door opens depends on its hinge, in reality a door wouldn't just pivot 180 degrees on its hinge unless its a swing door on stable stalls, or into a saloon, it might work in valves engine which is idtech 15 for hl2 and idtech 17 for the leftfordead 2 game. But hl2 uses two types of hinges where as far as I know there's only one in doom 3. (one type basically you drag the origin of the door to the edge of the door, then the way the door opens is hardcoded into the engine, it always opens away from you unless you use the flag to make it open towards you, and it then it opens towards you reguardless of which side of the door you are on. the other method is the hinge object, where you parent the object you want to move to the hinge object, and then the angle the hinge rotates around is set by pulling the origin of the hinge away from its center and the parented object pivots around that line from the hinges center and its origin but then again its hardcoded into which direction it opens either always away from you, or if flagged always towards you, it doesn't look real. although hl2 is a linear game where you are likely not to go through a doorway more than twice, where as games based on thief which are more like spider webs, you are likely to go through the same doorway a lot of times.)

 

as for breakneck thing most map builders have the objectives set to not kill anything, unless its needed in the map, and anyway most of the fun of the original game was to thump them on the back of the head and watch them fall down like a sack of potatoes. Pretty sure you play a thief and not an assassin.

 

the rope arrow attachment thing is more like a zipline, and that would be better as a seperate weapon/arrow object than a alternative fire for the rope arrow as far as I know the alt fire for the rope arrow is swinging on it.

 

as for combat the major point of the game is to avoid combat and death of an ai as much as possible, and running away and hiding in shadows is the way its usually played.

 

this is my point of view from a map builders position and not anyone connected to making the dark mod tools.

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-being able to climb left and right when grabbing onto ledges, just before getting up

 

This is something we've considered for the future.

 

-A hook/ trinket at the end of the rope arrow. (Perhaps an alternate fire option)

 

An interesting idea, but very difficult to implement.

 

This will give the player an extra choice of morality and a little flexibility if he doesn’t have his black jack, or if he just needs to kill someone nice and quietly

 

Besides being unrealistic, this option doesn't really add anything to gameplay. Why does the player need a totally silent way to kill people?

 

There are a few things that bug me about combat. One, the enemies take a real beating, but you only take 3 hits, lame. Two, ...It makes it hard to know what he’ll do next. Four, even when you get good at combat, it still kicks you in the balls every so often, in which I mean, the enemy will suddenly break the relatively intuitive pattern and stab you, and you won’t see it coming before it’s too late. This is -badly designed and needs improvement.

 

On the contrary, that's *exactly* how combat should be designed. You're not a trained warrior, you're a puny little thief. If you go head to head with an armoured guard, you should expect them to take more of a beating than you can. And it *should* be hard to know what they'll do next, just like in real life.

 

I liked thief because taking people out was easy

 

You might appreciate the easier difficulty settings that will be included in the next update.

 

Hold the attack button to raise your sword, press either the ‘q’, ‘e’, ‘r’ or ‘f’ buttons to attack in a different direction.

 

Making the player press buttons during an attack makes it very awkward to actually move. Most players are dodging and strafing during combat. The current combat system becomes very intuitive once you get used to it--you barely have to move the mouse at all to choose a swing direction.

 

The doors are pretty annoying, they automatically swing towards and then away from the door frame each time you interact with them

 

Again, this is on purpose. It allows you to open doors just a crack to peer through them, something that previous Thief games did not allow. That said, one of our programmers is experimenting with added control over doors.

 

in reality doors open into a room

 

Not necessarily. Doors generally open into whichever side of the door has more space.

 

as far as I know there's only one in doom 3. (one type basically you drag the origin of the door to the edge of the door, then the way the door opens is hardcoded into the engine

 

Doors can open whichever direction the mapper wants.

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Besides being unrealistic, this option doesn't really add anything to gameplay. Why does the player need a totally silent way to kill people?

Yup, it actually destroys gameplay. You wouldn't need your Blackjack anymore and so maps with 'find you gear'-objectives become less challenging instantly. And I mean, games are all about challenging yourself, which is also why the fighting has been done so hard. I only use the sword for defending myself while running away. You should experiment a little with the fighting system. You can control AI behavior pretty good with a sword pulled out, e.g. try raising you sword without releasing it.

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Which way doors open depends on space, whether it's a public or private area, local fire regulations (all fire doors open out) and personal preference.

Same with which side they're hung, whether they swing towards the wall so you see the room immediately or away from the wall so they shield the room for a few seconds. (I'm a carpenter so I know a little 'bout doors)

;)

Edited by Namdrol
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Everything you said but the following sounded perfectly reasonable to me.

 

Making the player press buttons during an attack makes it very awkward to actually move.

 

Tapping a button then coming back to your movement controls is hardly awkward, now moving the view while hitting? that's awkward, you have to train yourself to make a very subtle but apparent movement with the mouse while clicking the attack button and landing it in the right place, all while making sure that you don't suddenly get stabbed because the enemy doesn't flinch (enough), and seems to bounce back pretty quickly at times. Sorry, but if someone stabbed even the strongest of men in the stomach, let alone the head, they'd flinch.

 

Most players are dodging and strafing during combat.

 

Are you joking? you can't step back fast enough, they come running with like 2 millimeters distance and hit you because you can't outrun them unless you find shadows, or a very conga-luted exit, And you can't strafe around them either, because they are constantly perfectly facing you in battle.

 

The current combat system becomes very intuitive once you get used to it--you barely have to move the mouse at all to choose a swing direction.

 

once i get used to it? I consider myself to be an above average gamer in terms of experience. During the training mission, i got so frustrated that i actually resorted to shooting the bastard in the head with an arrow. I managed to use the proper techniques to finally kill the normal guy, then the guard, but the hammer threw me.

It takes way too long to get used to fighting someone with a sword, so who wouldn't want to just shoot them in the head with an arrow to avoid it? but then, what's the point of having a sword if it's so bad? I can understand if the guard is stronger than me, and makes me stumble back a step if he strikes me, but why make the controls so difficult to use?

 

And what's wrong with my idea? hell, i know little about programming, and i'm tempted to try just to get it in there to prove that it would be better. I mean in real life, if you were fighting someone, you wouldn't take you're eyes of them, you could barely avoid a blow while hitting them, you're arms would have to be longer... so why the problem with taking a quarter to half a second to tap a button then blocking the next hit? Then it's easier to switch between hitting and block, because as soon as you try to hit, the damned guard takes a swing at you. and you don't know until you've already taken a swing and lost you're health. and because they are stronger than you, you simply lose unless you do it practically perfectly. And what's more, the'll randomly try and run into you sometimes and screw up you're perception of where to hold your block.

 

I played the training mission just now, and beat the hammer after 3 goes. I should have beat him on the first because of how careful i was and how much I've played the mod. You need to know that you haven't made the right choice in this unless a challenge takes skill and not luck, because those random doubly timed slashes are no good.

If you want to fix this and keep you're controls i strongly suggest the following:

 

-Either take away the the random doubly timed counter attacks

-+ That and or stop the blasted enemy from running into you

-or use my controls

 

This seem pretty reasonable to me, but i reckon i could just rebind it myself, share it with everyone and see what everyone thinks when they've actually tried it.

 

I'm not trying to flame the mod or anything, far from it, it's the best mod I've ever played, but that's just it, i think it could be much better, and i just wanted to try and share that with everyone rather than keeping it to myself when i make a mod (permission permits, i can use the mod for my own right?).

 

And what of the reach suggestion, are you with me?

 

plus check my original, post as i will be adding something.

Edited by Mr Lemony Fresh
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Are you joking? you can't step back fast enough, they come running with like 2 millimeters distance and hit you because you can't outrun them unless you find shadows, or a very conga-luted exit

You can dodge their attacks, you just have to find the right moment. If you just run away, of course the enemy will come running after you. But if you wait until he raises his weapon for a strike, you can perfectly dodge his slash. The enemy is sort of trapped in his own animation in this case.

 

As I already said, experiment a little with the enemies. That's what the training area is for... Try the following things: Raise your weapon but don't release it. Just for the fun of it, raise your weapon without releasing it while running backwards. Pay attention to the movement of an enemy, especially while your weapon is raised. Sometimes they quit blocking, so that you can hit and dodge. Try staying close to your enemy if you actually want to fight him. The running attack is hard to block.

 

As for the Keyboard-fighting controls: I could never do dodging properly in UT. It just feels awkward and it's the same principal as your proposal. But well, everyone can do like he wants, so go ahead.

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Tapping a button then coming back to your movement controls is hardly awkward, now moving the view while hitting? that's awkward, you have to train yourself to make a very subtle but apparent movement with the mouse while clicking the attack button and landing it in the right place, all while making sure that you don't suddenly get stabbed because the enemy doesn't flinch (enough), and seems to bounce back pretty quickly at times. Sorry, but if someone stabbed even the strongest of men in the stomach, let alone the head, they'd flinch.

 

Yes. We know that everything isn't perfect with combat yet. That's why we called it 1.0 "Beta".

 

The next release...1.1, should address some of the issues with combat.

 

For 1.0, we didn't have time to finish all the AI difficulty. So in 1.1, AI have different difficulty levels....they're not all on their highest skill level. We mentioned that this was the case in other threads, and that it would be addressed.

 

I also believe the usability of the combat gesturing system has been improved since 1.0. It should be more responsive now. Even still, the 1.0 implementation didn't require a huge mouse gesture at all, so I can't agree with you about the view changing all that much.

 

In any case, we're not about to completely change the combat system to use buttons at this stage. Our combat system is inspired by Mount and Blade. We'll continue to refine it. You may disagree, but it's a fairly intuitive system. You can also change the settings to Auto Parry if you're not happy with it.

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Are you joking? you can't step back fast enough

 

No, I'm not joking, and yes, you can.

 

once i get used to it? I consider myself to be an above average gamer in terms of experience. During the training mission, i got so frustrated that i actually resorted to shooting the bastard in the head with an arrow.... It takes way too long to get used to fighting someone with a sword

 

So, your attempt to get used to it consists of trying the training map a couple times?

 

And what's wrong with my idea?

 

I've already told you. Moving the mouse a tiny bit is much easier than having to take your fingers off the movement keys and press another key every time you want to move or block.

 

if you were fighting someone, you wouldn't take you're eyes of them,

 

If you're moving your view so much that you're losing track of the enemy, then you're moving your mouse WAY too far. Just a very slight movement will do it. I found it a bit awkward at first too, but now it's second nature. Of course, if you're expecting to be a pro at it after a few attempts in the training map, obviously you're going to be disappointed. Keep in mind, the version you're playing has combat stuck at Expert level. Once the update is released (which should be soon), you will be able to modify it to Easy, which seems to be what you want.

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The great thing about all this is this:

 

hell, i know little about programming, and i'm tempted to try just to get it in there to prove that it would be better

 

So, soon enough we'll all be able to actually choose between the 2 systems and decide for ourselves! :laugh:

 

i think it could be much better, and i just wanted to try and share that with everyone rather than keeping it to myself when i make a mod

 

:laugh:!

 

:laugh:!:laugh:!:laugh:!

Edited by aidakeeley

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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..The enemy is sort of trapped in his own animation in this case.

 

See how you're relying on an AI deficiency to beat it? How am i meant to know (in game without having to resort to a forum) that, at some split second during his animation, i can just manage to run back. And what good is running back be when there's supposed to be a perfectly good block?

 

As for the Keyboard-fighting controls: I could never do dodging properly in UT. It just feels awkward and it's the same principal as your proposal. But well, everyone can do like he wants, so go ahead.

 

Well that's a fast passed fps, not a stealthy fps, and i'm supposed to be able to stand in front of the enemy and hit him, rather than run around him, which is tricky in it'self in this particular game.

 

For 1.0, we didn't have time to finish all the AI difficulty. So in 1.1, AI have different difficulty levels....they're not all on their highest skill level. We mentioned that this was the case in other threads, and that it would be addressed.

 

Alright, does that mean you'll be working on the issue where a degree of luck is required instead of pure skill?

 

If You can't manage to make a combat system that is sturdy, why go all out with it, adding all these strange rules. I don't see why i can't just point at his head and hit him, like i would in other games. Why such a desperate attempt to be different when you've cloned a good game to start with?

 

Yes. We know that everything isn't perfect with combat yet. That's why we called it 1.0 "Beta".

 

Is that why the members of the forum seem to believe that there's something insufficient with my judgement and not the mod? and that the combat is just fine if i "train" myself? I'm aware that this is a beta release, that's why i'm trying to stress the improvements I'd like to see in the future. I'm just perplexed that my reasonable arguments seem to do nothing.

 

No, I'm not joking, and yes, you can.

 

If i could step back quickly enough, it is something i should be able to do initially, and not after I have had much experience. This is a game, (or mod to be specific) and should not require actual training if you are an average gamer.

 

So, your attempt to get used to it consists of trying the training map a couple times?

 

what a question. Of course. It tests you're ability to fight with a sword from a fight with a rather unprotected simpleton all the way to a simpleton, and guard, and a hammer all at the same time. Yes this is my attempt to learn face to face combat. The level said "training mission" so i'm pretty sure it should be able to train me. And yes a couple of times, how many successfully pulled off games do you know that have a training mission you have to attempt more than once?

 

I've already told you. Moving the mouse a tiny bit is much easier than having to take your fingers off the movement keys and press another key every time you want to move or block.

 

well, i have the block button on the default mouse 3 since my hand is aready in the vacinity, so i doubt I'd run into that problem much.

 

...Easy, which seems to be what you want.

 

No, easy is not what i want, normal is, because i am of average skill. I'm coming from the principle that a video game should be intuitive to play after the first 10-15 minutes on a normal difficult, and by intuitive, i also mean, that real world rules, and experience of past games have applied so that getting used to changes aren't such a challenge. Most games I've played are games where I've picked normal or a little above normal and I've played through until the end with perhaps a few times when I've had some substantial difficulty. I've played dues ex, which as you know is quite different in it's stealth mechanic to thief, and made the adjustment pretty well.

However, i'm under the opinion that this method of combat has taken a rather big leap in the opposite direction of conventional gaming. I mean, you said that the player would need not resort to fighting an enemy close up if they try and stick to the whole theif way of doing it, but then, why create this unworldly combat system system that has obviously taken quite a bit of hard work to get where it has if you are mean't to avoid it.

 

So, soon enough we'll all be able to actually choose between the 2 systems and decide for ourselves!

 

good point, I'd have never thought there'd be people such as yourself around, you saved me a lot of work.

 

"i think it could be much better, and i just wanted to try and share that with everyone rather than keeping it to myself when i make a mod"

 

:laugh:!

 

:laugh:!:laugh:!:laugh:!

 

 

 

Right again, wouldn't want to waste my time... Am i to understand that you've just made a bold assumption that I am not capable of making a mod? what is this assumption based on? Is this supposed to hurt my feelings, and make me lash out at you so you can bait me, sit back and admire the handy work? think again.

 

I won't lash out at you, and better yet, i won't insult you, because that would distract me from the reason i came here. I don't want to have to prove my integrity as a gifted individual, so i don't want to feel pressured into providing evidence, like a token of assurance that I'm an intelligent human being. If after I've said my peace, and members have refused to take into consideration what i have to say, and they still don't consider the things i have to say, i will drop it and leave it.

 

 

I'm trying to spawn a discussion of improvement, motivation and ideas, i consider this mostly to be a debate, not a heated dispute.

 

I really like you're mod and i want to eventually come to a peaceful resolve to the discussion. This is my way of helping while my hands are full.

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i really just wanted you're mod to come to fruition in an intelligent pieceful way. i don't have any idea what your talking about otherwise i was only joyous and excited about you're coming mod and all the wonderful improvements it will afford. i don't know what your interpretation was but it seems as if youv gotten the wrong idea.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Is that why the members of the forum seem to believe that there's something insufficient with my judgement and not the mod? and that the combat is just fine if i "train" myself? I'm aware that this is a beta release, that's why i'm trying to stress the improvements I'd like to see in the future. I'm just perplexed that my reasonable arguments seem to do nothing.

Please keep in mind that the mod team has spent close to five years now building the thing, from textures to models to all the subsystems that go into it, and this seems to have involved no small amount of thought about gameplay as well. There are bound to be some raised eyebrows if someone comes in and suggests a slew of changes, some quite significant (as a non-team member mapper, I can see how your proposed change to mantling alone may change the play dynamics of a mission - any mission! - where climbing is involved; not necessarily for worse, but definitely for a way potentially unintended by the designer who labours from the perspective that this subset of the mod works this way and not that).

 

WRT modding experience, you may or may not have it; the Internet, sadly, is a place where every claim to a skill is worth as much as the person who raises it can demonstrate on previous work (which J.C. Denton did recently with his HDR shaders). The second issue is that a lot of people can talk the talk, but much fewer actually sit down and do something: if this wasn't the truth, we would be living in a world where many more ambitious mod projects came to realisation. Not to flame you, but your posts come across as slightly arrogant.

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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his improvements would make the game more like assassins creed than the thief game we know, and combat in the game was never any good for the thief in anyway, its a lot better just to knock them out than a prevoked full frontal assault. Or stack some crates up to somewhere dark and high before attacking a guard just so you've got somewhere safe to run before everything goes south.

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Look, for the most part the people on this forum are very descent and friendly, so I've come to a decision. I just now went back and played and finished the tears of st Lucia mission. It was a nice mission, but i can see that there is a difference in the game play quality from then, even until now, so i think, to try and keep the piece here, I'll let it lye, because i like the forum, i like the mod, and i want to join as a helpful member, and not someone who will go to no ends to stress a point. I'll say that The team members have come this far and it's pretty cool so far, so i have faith that they will be able to fix any problems at some point. I can see you're point about being irritated by someone who appears arrogant, so I'll leave it.

 

If you want my help as an artist, I'd be happy to help. I'm not spectacular, but i'm alright.

 

here's my deviant art. http://sim-mo.deviantart.com/

 

It's a bit of a taste of stuff I've done

 

I dabble in a few things, so anything art related if you want.

 

I'm a little busy with study, but i'd love to spend some free time helping out.

Edited by Mr Lemony Fresh
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Mr Lemony Fresh, there's a point that seemlingly hasn't been stressed enough in this thread: you are not supposed to fight in hand-to-hand combat. In fact, it's the last resort. Granted, some players will want to rid the whole level of all human life (as it was the case when I played the Thief games), but I think the focus of TDM is that you try not to be seen/attacked by enemy AI. Think of TDM as T3h_Mutha of all First Person Sneakers. While it does thake a while to get used to, it will pay out eventually.

 

Nice art, by the way. You really do know your stuff. Loved the Turtle Lizard Man!  :)

 

 

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Please also note that TDM is facing a problem. On the one hand it addresses to hardcore thief players, most of them very skilled and in desire of a new challenge as original thief has become way too easy, but on the other hand it wants to attract as many general players as possible. In the initial beta release all AI were set to hard difficulty because the combat difficultysystem wasn't done yet and the thief community with its hardcore players posed the majority of players this magnificent new mod was presented to.

 

Once 1.01 is released, you'll be able to choose between Normal, Hard, Expert and Master combat difficulty, the last one disabling auto-parry, which I really consider hardcore.

 

I think every opinion is a valid one, but the team cannot afford to to add everything to the wishlist. I also want to keep this a calm discussion, without insulting anyone. Please keep that in mind in the following passage:

Alright, does that mean you'll be working on the issue where a degree of luck is required instead of pure skill?

See how you're relying on an AI deficiency to beat it? How am i meant to know (in game without having to resort to a forum) that, at some split second during his animation, i can just manage to run back. And what good is running back be when there's supposed to be a perfectly good block?

It's pure logic and experimenting actually. Here is the way I approached the combat system (I should mention that I spent quite some time on the combat training course, because firstly there were only very few maps released initially and secondly I am a pretty overambitious individual :) ):

 

Once you notice AI come running after you when you run away (and possibly push you away), you stay put, if you actually want to fight them. You play a little with the controls and notice that you can raise the sword without releasing the strike, which forces the AI to stand still, remaining in their blocking position (at least for some time). When do AI also stand still, you ask yourself and experiment further. You notice that they also stand still when they raise their weapon for a strike, which is your chance to perform a dodge. Later you notice that AI decide to drop their block eventually in order to hit you while you still have your sword raised, resulting in a sure strike to its head. However, the AI also hits you for sure, because you can't block while striking. You then combine all your acquired knowledge and perform a sure-to-hit strike-dodge combo.

 

Experimenting with game mechanics - and possibly discovering exploitable "bugs" during - is what defines skill, combined with a good reaction and the capability to decide for the best solution to a stressful situation. Take Quake as an example. Skilled players use strafejumping, rocketjumps, plasmaclimbs et cetera to stand out from the regular player and those techniques weren't communicated to the player anywhere ingame (up until quake live). I agree though that just like in quake, advanced techniques shouldn't be a requirement for successfully fighting AI, which is where the new combat difficulty system comes into play.

 

Well that's a fast paced fps, not a stealthy fps, and i'm supposed to be able to stand in front of the enemy and hit him, rather than run around him, which is tricky in it'self in this particular game.

My point was just that the concept of releasing a movement button to press it again feels very awkward and unintuitive to me. And in this case, it wouldn't even be related to movement, whereas in UT it is. Also, standing still in front of an enemy is fine, as long as you're only fighting a single one, but as soon as there are two or more, you have to move, because you can only block strikes coming from one direction at a time.

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First off, I've been playing games a long, long time and any game that's able to be mastered after 10 mins play is unlikely to be one I'd want to play for long.

And it very possible to dodge and move about in combat. I never use the sword and if I get into a confrontation I use my blackjack and move out of range, parrying with a whack. I take a bit of damage but I can nearly always knock 'em out. I only play on expert so generally I can't kill, so the sword is useless against human AIs anyway

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Next : remove all options, advanced movement and add autoaim(through helmets) to appeal to console gamers

 

At some point in a project you have to define what your aims and choice basis is. "moody stealth game inspired by the Thief series by Looking Glass Studios." covers a fair bit. If you think about it, there are a lot of stealth issues with t1/2 etc did not deal with, allowing you to become a blackjack swinging perma-running ferret of destruction. That is not stealth. The statement doesnt cover the intended audience, but its fairly obvious that its not "the common man on the street". If TDM wanted to just act as a visual update to Thief I think it would be reflected in the choices, instead it is "inspired".

 

What you need to see is that while feedback is great, you are only painting the picture of yourself as a person that says "I know what's needed, you are all thinking wrong". If you want to look at how this is not a good image to get, you should watch something like this. It's quite long but a good watch if you(anyone reading) are interested in the "HR" side of opensource development.

 

I know you mean no offense though :)

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oops i missed this post.

 

i really just wanted you're mod to come to fruition in an intelligent pieceful way. i don't have any idea what your talking about otherwise i was only joyous and excited about you're coming mod and all the wonderful improvements it will afford. i don't know what your interpretation was but it seems as if youv gotten the wrong idea.

 

Oops... sorry, i'm used to sarcasm, :P. If that's how you felt, then i withdraw my words.

 

I know you mean no offense though

 

Of course not, i merely wanted to test the length i had to go to try and be helpful. It's easier to see now, that I need to let someone else worry about it. But i hope you like my trinket arrow idea :P, Not saying you've gotta use it, it but it's a nice little thing to add if at some point it calls to you. (the team of course ;) )

Edited by Mr Lemony Fresh
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...it but it's a nice little thing to add if at some point it calls to you. (the team of course ;) )

 

A lot of your ideas would probably be suitable for other mods, but likely not this one. At this stage in development, everything is essentially locked down with the play style we set out to create. Around 14 missions have been released, so we're not likely to start adding such game changing mechanics.

 

Another team is obviously free to use our source code as the basis for their own mod, and add all of those features you mentioned though.

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Well, Mr Lemony Fresh, I gotta say that your dual-anchor rope arrow will definitely by a monstrous job to code. I believe it can be done: bind one rope joint to an anchor, and bind the opposite rope joint to another anchor. The physics is easy. The implementation, code support, is not. And I haven't got the time to explore it.

 

But I have had a lot of fun "cheating" with rope physics before. I managed to rope-arrow a crate, and catapult the crate over a castle wall in order to infiltrate the keep. It wasn't perfect (since it was a physics-based puzzle), but it was hella fun making in DR.

 

EDIT: I think this is what you're thinking of...

Proof of physics concept

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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Once you notice AI come running after you when you run away (and possibly push you away), you stay put, if you actually want to fight them. You play a little with the controls and notice that you can raise the sword without releasing the strike, which forces the AI to stand still, remaining in their blocking position (at least for some time). When do AI also stand still, you ask yourself and experiment further. You notice that they also stand still when they raise their weapon for a strike, which is your chance to perform a dodge. Later you notice that AI decide to drop their block eventually in order to hit you while you still have your sword raised, resulting in a sure strike to its head. However, the AI also hits you for sure, because you can't block while striking. You then combine all your acquired knowledge and perform a sure-to-hit strike-dodge combo.

 

When you hold an attack and they stand there parrying it, you don't actualy have to wait for them to drop their parry to attack. If you let go of attack and hit it again rapidly in a different direction, you're effectively performing a feint attack (or "one-two" in boxing). Often you will hit them. It works better if you change direction while they're still starting to parry. Sometimes, they decide to stab you instead of parrying your second attack, like real people wearing heavy armor against some unarmored guy who keeps feinting.

 

@Mr. Lemony:

As for the mouse moving all around when you attack, that's nonsense. It locks the view in place for 120 milliseconds as soon as you press attack. Any longer feels wrong. Also, you do realize you can still aim the attack the whole time it's swinging out, right?

 

Anyway, for people who want easier combat, that will be in the update. For people who don't like it, here's a hint: You're not supposed to be able to win at combat all the time. That would make the stealth pointless. What you're really supposed to do with the sword is swing at them long enough to make them pause to defend themselves, then run away before they can recover and chase after you.

 

I agree the combat tutorial is not that good because there's a huge jump in difficulty between the first and second opponent, and he can take too many hits before he dies. Taking too many hits before death will be changed in the update, and hopefully I will have time for a future update of the tutorial that ramps up the difficulty more gradually and also includes some skill-building excercises.

 

Combat was quite WIP in the last release... that's why we said that all over the readme. It was one of the last things we programmed, and thus did not get as extensively tested as other things, because guess what, we wanted to focus on the STEALTH elements.

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Like i said, This is something i need to leave alone. I can't really help having an opinion, but i can tell it's not going to help to trying and stress it. To be perfectly honest, I haven't submitted to on a personal level to what people have to say. I only want a peaceful resolve.

 

I understand that you play a major role in the project and that it was important to say you're peace, but on the other hand, what has been said has been said and I've acknowledged all views and opinions.

 

I'm sure you can do what has to be done, and I trust that you'll do a good job.

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