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Fidcal

Thief revisited and compared

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For the last day or so I've been playing a new Thief 2 FM, King's Story and it's very good but I became interested in how Thief felt after an absence of a year or two and how Dark Mod stacks up against it. We all know how it was moving from Thief to Dark Mod but TDM has grown gradually and its only in the last few months we are playing more and more and bigger TDM FMs so can compare them with Thief. Some of these comparisons struck me quite strongly so will relate below.

 

This FM is a two level campaign. In the first you are crossing the mountains to reach and get into a castle. The second part is within the castle and is essentially a mansion heist. It has varied puzzles and story so similar to my own style of FM.

 

I've completed Level 1 and been on Level 2 on and off for hours today. The screenshots below are I think, impressive, allowing for the limitations of the Thief engine. I don't think they are really spoilers but I'll hide them anyway out of courtesy.

 

Heart is just over 40MB; King is 300MB! (probably includes a ton of new models and textures.)

 

I'm playing this on my old XP with a decent 3Ghz processor but an old FX5900 graphics card. Heart of Lone Salvation is playable but sluggish in parts. It takes, I guess, a minute or so to load at first; then just a few seconds for each quickload.

 

The first thing that astonished me in King's Story Level 1 was how fast it loaded! Almost instantaneously, well a second or two. I've been used to waiting much longer - I was amazed. Plus it was quite a decent size - bigger than any of our FMs so far except probably Heart and Goldchocobo's Politics. But this first King level has some wide open spaces but not huge detail so more akin to Politics or Dufford than Heart in that respect.

 

Frame rates were really good and I don't think I had any noticeable lag even though some of the vistas were impressive. Amazing how good skybox scenery can make a level feel bigger. First view of the castle took my breath away...

 

 

post-400-127102289281_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

Onto Level 2 and this was the opposite. It took quite a while to load the first time - and every time is the same! This is significantly slower than Heart to quickload after a bust! And there were a lot of them!

 

There were some big views but mainly the inside of this building is lots and lots of varied size rooms, mostly small and tight. Average detail for a Thief FM but otherwise compares to Heart in respect of rooms (though hard for me to tell yet which is bigger.)

 

 

post-400-127102291427_thumb.jpg post-400-127102293139_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

But here I am getting serious frame lag which is spoiling it somewhat. Strangely, it does not seem to make much difference what resolution I put it on I get this chugging and near slide show at times. In addition, I think it got worse as I continued, even in the same areas I first visited. And as well, I'm getting this framelag even in small rooms. This reminds of the original Politics - remember how the framelag got worse as you progressed plus it was bad even in tiny rooms. We tracked that down to the AI and a slight reduced thinking time fixed it. Anyway, I don't feel so bad about Heart now! I get much better performance. Admittedly the open areas are not so big in Heart but there is far more complexity not even counting texture and model detail. Doom must be just more efficient.

 

Next, gameplay. Oh dear! Mantling is so bad. So much worse than you remember. There is just no comparison with TDM. Allowing that I am rusty, even so, multiple attempts for simple climbs eg, to get on a desk etc. One situation I had to climb on the fence of a balcony. Mantling just would not work so I had to back off, gamesave, run and jump, reload, repeat. If I was an inch too far I sailed over the balcony to my death; an inch short and a clatted down this side risking an alert. I had to judge it to perfectly land on the rail. Other situations, Garrett just get gasping but dropped back and alerted anyone nearby. <Shudder>

 

Alerts: This is no better than TDM. I am getting guards alert 2 rooms away without notice in some situations. One doorway I was on wood, crouching, creeping. A single step and a guard at the far end of a long room whirled around instantly and came running. Admitttedly the AI acuity can be tweaked but what I am saying is there was a lot of unpredictable variation from what you would expect in real life. I don't see how anyone can complain about TDM alerts.

 

I have ghosted through Heart with only the occasional bust or careless error; less than a dozen reloads in 4 hours. In King I have done endless quickloads; sometimes for a few seconds; fail; quickload. Well, you know the situations where you get a frustrating jump or sneak. Reluctantly I've compromised and done some KO's so I can get around.

 

It has been really interesting to revisit Thief; you should try it.

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Thanks for the post, fascinating to hear about this revisit as you put it. I haven't played any Thief in forever myself


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Yes, very interesting. I've thought of doing this myself just for the sake of comparison. I still have TDS on my machine and I fire it up every now and again for comparison. It's very illuminating (for instance, although we sometimes get criticized for our animations, they are *far* more varied and more polished than TDS).

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It's kind of sad... but I think TDM has ruined me for any of the old Thief games. In a way (but not exactly) it's as with "re-plays", I know a lot of people enjoy them, but I just can't go back.

 

IOW?

 

I hope sooner rather than later, all this messing about with that inferior system will cease and all the great FM builders will put their efforts into TDM stuff. Maybe (surely) that is a bit of a flippant attitude in that many people can't run TDM. But, really? By the end of the year or thereabouts I'm betting this thing will be stabilized enough that anyone will be able to play it by down-tuning the bells and whistles enough, on what, seriously, amounts to bare-minimum HW these days. And D3? C'mon. It's <$10, ain't it?

 

Everything about TDM is much better than T2. Yep. Sorry (no I'm not).

 

DR is also vastly superior to Dromed, no? From what I see and hear, yep again. Faster, sleeker, more features, more assets AND it builds missions... for a vastly superior game!

 

...

 

I know this is blunt and seemingly premature, to push for the abandonment of T2 FM development, but it needs to happen. It's a shame that King's Story, which I'm betting is a good story, is wasted on that crusty old engine.

 

Long! Live! ...nothing...

 

-The-Perfectly-Self-Aware-Zealot

Edited by aidakeeley

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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In all fairness, I ought to have said that instead of Dark Mod ruining Thief for me, apart from some issues, I had a new respect for Thief. Lockpicking was OK - much as you remember it - but not as good as Dark Mod. Mantling was the big killer for me. The alerts were actually more difficult but I think this is an exceptional FM with lots of tight spots and a host of AI.

 

Some features I forgot to mention:

 

Run speed: I couldn't see any different from what we've got.

 

Jump up or forward or running jump: Ditto. No extremely noticeable difference.

 

Crashes: I had several crashes to desktop the big Level 2 and these were mostly when I tried to reload an earlier gamesave (not the latest one) and particularly from the previous level. I also had a crash when I first saw the Castle from a bridge. On quickload it was OK but I lost the music (I forgot to mention the orchestral music in this is great - but then it is choked with custom stuff of all kinds.)

 

Crouch height is higher, approximately belt height for screen centre.

 

Sway bob: Woah.... This is really at sea swaying in all directions. Mostly got used to it but it seems over the top now compared to Dark Mod. Funny I never significantly noticed this when I first began Thief in 1998 but then I was on sensory overload anyway.

 

Inertia: I got a strong sense of 'slippiness' especially in the mountains where when I pulled up there mostly seemed a slight overshoot which made me uneasy. I couldn't decide if the texture had been tweaked for slippiness or whether all surfaces were like because you don't notice so much in level room. But I suspect it is universal.

 

Gameplay was fine and as always is massively affected by the particular FM design. The fact is, so much depends on the FM and apart from the irritations mentioned, I am enjoying this one and persisting. I'm curious to see just how big it is because I think the floorplan is smaller than Heart but this I think is 5 stories. Lots of keys though. Don't you hate it when FMs have lots of keys to find? ;) Seriously, the trick here is not to worry about where you cannot get (for now) and explore everything you can.

 

Overall, I think the lesson is that Dark Mod has got it about right and the issues we have with performance, crashes, etc. though of concern, are not so terrible compared to Thief.

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In all fairness, I ought to have said that instead of Dark Mod ruining Thief for me, apart from some issues, I had a new respect for Thief.

 

I never got that impression from what you wrote.

 

But I am saying it. Because it is the truth. At this point, now that TDM is here and on its way out of betaville, Thief is a thing of the past. A thing, I promise you, no one has more fond memories of... and no one has consistently promoted as the best game ever. I couldn't possibly have more respect for Thief.

 

But, despite the reactionary feelings that might get stirred up by saying so: TDM is Thief improved... in many very excellent ways.

 

If King's Story was a TDM mission it would be much better -- visually, mechanically, intriguingly.

 

It would.


"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Revisiting the originals, i think all TDM needs for the total replace are:

 

- better soundeffects ,especially for enemy footstep.

- ambient tracks need even more gentle humming, noises, pulsating.. fire up the original score and hear what makes you shiver.

- fog / view distance, some maps look unbelievable because of this, its too clear to see its within an invisible box.

 

what i cant beleive darkmod will ever achieve is how artistically fantastic things can look in that engine.. doom3 is just too clear for that. Original games create a believable other-world in the mind much more easily because of this.

Edited by _Atti_

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Revisiting the originals, i think all TDM needs for the total replace are:

 

- better soundeffects ,especially for enemy footstep.

- ambient tracks need even more gentle humming, noises, pulsating.. fire up the original score and hear what makes you shiver.

- fog / view distance, some maps look unbelievable because of this, its too clear to see its within an invisible box.

 

* D3 (and thus TDM) already supports fog, but it is tricky to use, so not many FMs use it.

* We have tons of ambient sounds and music but they are a bit underused in FMs. Adding them is quite a lot of work (just like everything else in a mission is usually a lot of manual work)


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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It's a faszinating post. What always puts me off when seeing modern Thief FMs is their poor visual quality, mainly due to the very very simple blocky brushwork and the very low-res textures, combined with the bad lighting from the engine.

 

Don't get me wrong, the castle is VERY impressive for that editor and the engine - the original makers would be floored to see this. Also, the custom textures and objects really enhance it. This is no longer Thief, this is Thief 2.5.

 

However, despite all this, there are still too little faces (esp. when silouettte would need more), and way too low-res textures.

 

TDM has some work today esp. in the texture department, but the lighting and architecture of a TDM FM can be easily soo much better that it is simple unfair to compare these to the original engine.

 

Can't talk about sound or gameplay, as I haven't loaded Thief for years :)


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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[..]

what i cant beleive darkmod will ever achieve is how artistically fantastic things can look in that engine.. doom3 is just too clear for that. Original games create a believable other-world in the mind much more easily because of this.

 

I partially agree to that. The original games create a kind of cosy feeling, probably caused by the the washed out textures.

Sometimes I think that TDM needs a "Fuzzy/Cosy" slider :-)

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I don't see how that can be argued at all. If you want a fuzzier/murkier/washed-out/less-clear look... then it is easy to do so starting with a clarity. It's the other way that would be impossible.

 

It's like some 80s heyday saying, "Oh, you kids! You'll never get that beautiful, monochrome, 72dpi facsimile look and feel we had back in our faxing fax days with all your emails and 24-bit bitmaps!"

 

Ludicrous.


"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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I don't see how that can be argued at all. If you want a fuzzier/murkier/washed-out/less-clear look... then it is easy to do so starting with a clarity. It's the other way that would be impossible.

 

It's like some 80s heyday saying, "Oh, you kids! You'll never get that beautiful, monochrome, 72dpi facsimile look and feel we had back in our faxing fax days with all your emails and 24-bit bitmaps!"

 

Ludicrous.

 

Yeah, that's what I'd say, too. We f.i. have anisotropic texture filtering, Thief has not, and it shows.

 

Technically, you just could tone the filtering level down and arrive at the "Thief[tm] feeling", the oppossite is not possible. However, I wouldn't want fuzzy-in-the-distance-depending-on-viewing-angle textures back.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I somewhat understand his point of view, it doesnt apply to every material mostly just wood and tiles; the way that those surfaces look ok with low res surrounding textures is good, but if everything is detailed and high res they often end up being too busy to the eye.

 

But without saying 'high res textures are a bad thing', if textures are designed well they generally dont have that problem so long as the mapper uses them correctly :)

 

At the moment my only issue with TDMs current textures are the carpet ones - but I am slowly working through them and collecting similar samples so that I can replace them with higher res versions that don't break old maps etc :)

 

Returning to the topic:

 

There are those people that think TDM is meant to be a perfect recreation of Thief and that the AI is too smart, after thinking back and remembering as much as I could about T1/2 I really don't understand how people can say that is a bad thing, I was always a bit let down that the guards were no real challenge for the most part.

 

But yeah, I dont want to hurf blurf about TDM being super awesome; only leads to being accepting of niggles and such :P

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I somewhat understand his point of view, it doesnt apply to every material mostly just wood and tiles; the way that those surfaces look ok with low res surrounding textures is good, but if everything is detailed and high res they often end up being too busy to the eye.

 

But without saying 'high res textures are a bad thing', if textures are designed well they generally dont have that problem so long as the mapper uses them correctly :)

 

At the moment my only issue with TDMs current textures are the carpet ones - but I am slowly working through them and collecting similar samples so that I can replace them with higher res versions that don't break old maps etc :)

 

It would be cool if you could do this with all "big" textures, e.g. anything that is used on doors, walls, floors etc. We have quite a few textures where they low resolution stands out esp. when small objects are near. For instance a 512x512 door texture looks quite bad when you have a small candle holder with 256x256 next to it because the holder is so much sharper.

 

Playing on 1920x1200, and textures can't be big enough to become crystal clear :)

 

Returning to the topic:

 

There are those people that think TDM is meant to be a perfect recreation of Thief and that the AI is too smart, after thinking back and remembering as much as I could about T1/2 I really don't understand how people can say that is a bad thing, I was always a bit let down that the guards were no real challenge for the most part.

 

But yeah, I dont want to hurf blurf about TDM being super awesome; only leads to being accepting of niggles and such :P

 

Well, yeah, people who want a Thief-being-recreated-only-better-but-not-changed-at-all will be dissappointed no matter what we do :)


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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It would be cool if you could do this with all "big" textures, e.g. anything that is used on doors, walls, floors etc. We have quite a few textures where they low resolution stands out esp. when small objects are near. For instance a 512x512 door texture looks quite bad when you have a small candle holder with 256x256 next to it because the holder is so much sharper.

 

Thats my plan, but I need to get my svn access sorted before I reinvent wheels, only have contrib access atm. A list would never hurt so that I knew which ones people noticed the most, since it does consume quiet a bit of time to replace textures considering you need similar source art then a hell of a lot of time for manual stuff, usually around 4-5 hours after suitable source has been found to a final texture, its fairly relaxing tho :)

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Thats my plan, but I need to get my svn access sorted before I reinvent wheels, only have contrib access atm. A list would never hurt so that I knew which ones people noticed the most, since it does consume quiet a bit of time to replace textures considering you need similar source art then a hell of a lot of time for manual stuff, usually around 4-5 hours after suitable source has been found to a final texture, its fairly relaxing tho :)

 

Lets create an internal thread, where we can list the textures. I'd also PM sparhawk to sort your SVN out, did you do that already?


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I'll PM him now, feel free to start that thread tho - I'm hitting some uni work at the moment; be done in a few hours.

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I'll PM him now, feel free to start that thread tho - I'm hitting some uni work at the moment; be done in a few hours.

 

Hah, we already got one:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/8991-nominate-poor-textures/

 

(Was started one year ago, and there is only one reply, tho :) Feel free to add to it.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I don't see how that can be argued at all. If you want a fuzzier/murkier/washed-out/less-clear look... then it is easy to do so starting with a clarity. It's the other way that would be impossible.

 

It's like some 80s heyday saying, "Oh, you kids! You'll never get that beautiful, monochrome, 72dpi facsimile look and feel we had back in our faxing fax days with all your emails and 24-bit bitmaps!"

 

Ludicrous.

 

Hey, I am talking about how I feel when playing thief. Not that I want the 'good old times' back and I do not expect TDM to be Thief 2010 or something.

I have a lot of fun playing and testing TDM missions, but due to the lack of anisotropic filtering, clearness etc. Thief often FEELS warmer. TDM on the other hand LOOKS better. Thats all.

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Here is my comparison, as someone who likes to play missions from both games:

 

Thief (and especially The Dark Project, which is "Thief" without needing any other labels) is a technologically outdated game, and it has been that way since forever. It is, at the same time, a perfect storm of ambience, understated but powerful storytelling, music, voice acting and world design. It is not flawless; rather, it transcends its flaws and limitations because of its cohesive vision - the way it all comes together. TDP is internally consistent both globally (elements of the game support each other admirably to achieve a specific mood) and in its elements (see, for example, the SpotStreetLamp object with its spinning green orbs, worn appearance and soft buzz - something that already establishes the setting as something more than simply mediaeval - it is advanced technology in the setting, it is worn and rusty, and it is alien to us but still recognisable). Consistency is very hard to do; in fact, most games, especially complex modern games, never quite get close to it (or even think they ought to get close to it).

 

TDM is a logical approximation of Thief with high production values and a ton of unexploited potential, some features highly improved or taken in interesting new ways (Fidcal's slow match is a thing of beauty). With fixes, features and polish, it will be better yet. Nevertheless, it is a collective work that doesn't quite have the same unity of vision as TDP does -- I think it gets it best in oDDity's AI models, while elsewhere, it is a bit cobbled together. I don't mean this as a slight, just like I don't expect a very good restaurant to serve Michelin Guide-level food. Fortunately, there is a lot of potential for further improvement, so I am optimistic about the prospects.


Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Here is my comparison, as someone who likes to play missions from both games:

 

Thief (and especially The Dark Project, which is "Thief" without needing any other labels) is a technologically outdated game, and it has been that way since forever. It is, at the same time, a perfect storm of ambience, understated but powerful storytelling, music, voice acting and world design. It is not flawless; rather, it transcends its flaws and limitations because of its cohesive vision - the way it all comes together. TDP is internally consistent both globally (elements of the game support each other admirably to achieve a specific mood) and in its elements (see, for example, the SpotStreetLamp object with its spinning green orbs, worn appearance and soft buzz - something that already establishes the setting as something more than simply mediaeval - it is advanced technology in the setting, it is worn and rusty, and it is alien to us but still recognisable). Consistency is very hard to do; in fact, most games, especially complex modern games, never quite get close to it (or even think they ought to get close to it).

 

TDM is a logical approximation of Thief with high production values and a ton of unexploited potential, some features highly improved or taken in interesting new ways (Fidcal's slow match is a thing of beauty). With fixes, features and polish, it will be better yet. Nevertheless, it is a collective work that doesn't quite have the same unity of vision as TDP does -- I think it gets it best in oDDity's AI models, while elsewhere, it is a bit cobbled together. I don't mean this as a slight, just like I don't expect a very good restaurant to serve Michelin Guide-level food. Fortunately, there is a lot of potential for further improvement, so I am optimistic about the prospects.

 

I can underwrite this, TDM has a lot of spots where the consistency is missing, because it is indeed "cobbled" together, both from a lot of contributors and also because it was done over a long time span, where even contributors changed/improved their working style. Hopefully in the near future we can also improve these bits so everything comes together (instead just adding more and more new features).


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I'm a huge believer in evolution and as new stuff is added, what works best in Dark Mod will survive and what is not so strong will tend to fall away. It can only get better in every respect. Indeed, I think of Dark Mod as the evolution of Thief: same species; new generation.

 

BTW, The performance in King's Story seems even worse as I play on - though that may be subjective. I'm fairly tolerant. In Heart on this old machine I suffered some views of 6 to 8fps but knew that mostly it would be 15 and lots of places 20 to 60fps. Not ideal but playable for me. In King I am seeing a consistent (guessing) 3 or 4 or 5 now everywhere even inside cupboard rooms on this same machine. I'm thinking of installing Thief on my other Vista machine but for various reasons that is a nuisance.

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When I played some T2 FMs after playing TDM for a while, the big things I noticed were the mantling being harder, the AI and some brushwork being more blocky, the keybinds are a little different ... But the sound was still very nice (the assets); and roombrushing still directs sound well; the baked soft lighting can be nice at times. I remember all the FMs coming out the same time as mine (last Halloween) all being quality or fun. If someone really thinks about the gameplay, they can still make a good mission in T2. I'm not going to stop playing T2 FMs just because I have a backlog of 100s of them, and old engine or not, when someone spends months putting thought into a level, it should be fun to play and you can still be caught up in it. I can go back and forth.

 

I have high hopes for the development of Dark Mod and will probably be sticking to it for my own work, though... I like feeling on the ground-floor of something that will blossom over time, and something I know was entirely our own thing... Kind of empowering, like our generation's punk rock; we know what kinds of things we like and we'll do it ourselves and share with each other, and the commercial world can pay attention or not, either way we'll be doing our thing.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Yeah. TDM is Steampunk Rock.

 

When comparing both games to me it is not about making a dicision to favour one and forget about the other. I think most people will enjoy TDM's growing potential as well as the unbeatable disitinct feeling you get when going back to the game we all fell in love with.

 

On a technical side note: Thief's sound system still seems to be superior. It could be subjective since everyone has a different sound setup connected to their computers. But when I'm playing (with my not at all cheap headphones) it is way easier for me to trace a sound in Thief than in TDM.

 

Never had more than a peek on DromEd, have heard of air brushes but don't know much about how it all works. What I know is in TDM sound propagation works through visportals -- from a design point this is giving me a little headache, because it is one tool that we use for two quite different things: creating vis leafs and sound propagation.

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