Thief revisited and compared

[Fidcal]

The worst of the mantling is not the high climbs but the trivial things like clambering over furniture, very low beds etc, low balcony, which is a real pantomime.

 

In this specific FM I have got through a lot of nice areas but don't feel I've made much progress except gradual loot increments (which are nicely spaced and natural.) Complex story but almost all readables are static so it's impossible to remember all the names and relationships. I'm just hoping that will reconcile itself or be unnecessary before the end of this level else I'll have to look through the files and re-read them.

 

But what I'm finding annoying (and I don't know if it's this mission or Thief generally compared to TDM) is the difficulty in judging dark corners. There seem to be a lot of invisible light spikes where light barely reaches surfaces so they are very dark and yet when you make a dash for safety there you are lit up like a Christmas tree surrounded by dark. This is apparent everywhere and I've given up trying to judge but just dash to different corners in a new room and watch the light gem. I've been busted dozens of times simply because I get caught with nowhere to hide (or maybe 10 places that look safe but perhaps only one really is!)

 

I'm seeing some good ideas thought to remember for Dark Mod. One is a very wide pillar in the middle of a large room works quite well to hide behind and support-wise divides the room in four while still keeping it a large room. And rooms on different levels. I don't know if I can work that into my own manor.

[Baddcog]

 

 

Never had more than a peek on DromEd, have heard of air brushes but don't know much about how it all works. What I know is in TDM sound propagation works through visportals -- from a design point this is giving me a little headache, because it is one tool that we use for two quite different things: creating vis leafs and sound propagation.

 

Dromed just starts with solid space, then you carve air brushes out of that. And then you can add solid like DR.

We just start with air and add. A different beast but both work pretty well.

 

You can do alot more in DR though, patches are a huge improvement for editing. I can do things with patches that I don't know if I'd be able to pull off in Dromed. Plus we can make anything out of brushes/patches (doors, chests) and have them work.

 

The bonus for the Dromed style is that you can't ever leak. Since the 'void' is solid and the map is inside of it it can't leak. So it takes care of the portalling during compile. Very nice, even Hammer portals during compile time (but hammer isn't very good at it so you have to go through and optimize the portals, much like we do with DR).

 

BUT, with Dromed you have to add sound brushes. Bascially a room around every room. And sound travels between these brushes. So much easier to keep sound from going through a wall but alot more work than visportals.

[aidakeeley]

TDM is superior to T2 in every way.

 

It is not like Rugby and Football.

 

There are only more mappers working in that broken-down old gem... who would be making much better, more playable, more beautiful, more exciting things if they would move on up.

 

It is commendable to praise the work of those still working in the old system, but it does not translate, really, that there is anything but lost opportunity in continuing to mess with that old system. The praise is nice, but the only encouragement these people should be getting is to come work in DR.

 

...

 

ETA: Oh and Fidcal, I too can say you've got nothing to balk at. Rather your desire to become even better is only a good thing. I'd hope you'd just enjoy the campaign, soak up the fun and play. Soak up the other stuff too -- the mission building notices, but do it without an iota of anxiety.

 

...And for Pete's (Pete=me and the rest of us waiting for your next) sake... don't revise all you've got into the current WIP! Apply the new inspirations & gleamings going forward, yes, surely... but I implore, I beg, I beseech, I am being hyperbolic! and I am slightly tongue-in-cheek with a subtext of seriousness... please do not get caught in an eddy of revisementationness!

Edited September 8, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Bikerdude]

Next, gameplay. Oh dear! Mantling is so bad. <Shudder>

I'm playing HOC2 atm, and mantling is so bad its put me of playing the mission on several occasions. in fact some T2 mission have been so bad in that regard I have stopped playing, closed thief and then deleted the FM from my hard drive. Its a shame as in some of the best T2 missions, eg Rocksbourg series the author(DrK) has just made sure the player dosent have to put up with this no where nearly as much.

[lost_soul]

While I definitely would like to see more people pick up TDM and start mapping, I just can't say goodbye to Thief 1. The story, ambiance, and levels were just so great, barring a few like Thieve's Guild. There hasn't been anything as spooky, mysterious, engaging to explore, and surprising as "The Sword" from T1 was for TDM yet. I'm not saying someone should re-create the level, but I would love to see some twisted mansion like that, where you never know what to expect for TDM.

 

As for T2, i never really got attached to it. Seriously, I'm down with the Hammerites, the guards, the undead, the pagans and all other factions, but I just never liked the Mechanists. They just feel out-of-place in games like this. I'll shamefully admit that when I got near the end of T2, where the Mechanist levels came into play, I just stopped playing. T2X was completed to the end though, because the story was more interesting than that of Thief 2.

 

Thief 2 is the only game I haven't fully completed yet. I suppose I should buckle down and finish it, just so I can say I've completed all three of them.

[BrokenArts]

There are a few T2 authors, when they release something, I will play their FM without a doubt. DrK is one of them. His Night In Rougsbourg series is dynamite. His use of textures, his story telling, and the voice acting! Top notch, I helped beta test his last FM, there are a few FM's that I remember testing. DrK and Saturnine, Yandros too. You won't forget those guys. As the days wear on, I find myself more involved with TDM. I've played Thief since the beginning, its time for a change, its evolution again.

 

Fidcal, play Rose Cottage, you want stunning again, take a look. Best damn opening for any FM hands down.

[Melan]

Rose Cottage is amazing work. I don't understand how Saturnine and helpers could do all that, even with all the editor tricks on their side.

[Fidcal]

I'm too scared to play Rose Cottage in the dark from what I've heard. I'll wait for a sunny day. Or am I getting that mixed up with something else and it's really about a sweet happy family living together in harmony in the country and you go and rob them?

 

I'll definitely play the Night In Rougsbourg(sic) series. I played the first one but some time ago so I'm a bit muddled and may be mixing different memories in my head. Is this the one with a plague or something and parts of the city are separated? I also remember starting one in a tavern and the narrow streets and balconies and woodwork were glorious but most especially the street sounds hammering and dogs and cats etc. That is what influenced me to make the city sounds in Thief's Den as they add so much life and atmosphere.

 

Don't you just envy me? I've got all these FMs to play.

 

I shall definitely drop everything and play that new one from digi and co which is now in beta.

[jaxa]

Playing the Bathory Campaign by Sensut. If it's comparable to Dracula Reloaded it should be quite the treat.

[gnartsch]

I'm too scared to play Rose Cottage in the dark from what I've heard. I'll wait for a sunny day. Or am I getting that mixed up with something else and it's really about a sweet happy family living together in harmony in the country and you go and rob them?

 

No reason to be scared.

Sure it has a well-done cosy & creepy athmosphere (does that sound contradictory ? it isn't !),

but really nothing shocking that should scare you to death.

 

 

As for TDM: this is pretty good stuff !

I enjoy most aspects of it and I see no need to see 'Garrett' being revived in it.

The gameplay, look-and-feel are indeed superior from a technical perspective.

And as mission-authors for TDM mature, we will see larger maps, better stories, 'wierd' maps,

more voice-acting and everything else one may see missing today coming along sooner or later.

I am sure of that.

 

But as for T-FM's : I have played 1000+ FM's already and I will surely never stop playing any T1/T2/T3 mission I can put hands on.

They still have a lot of charme to me.

Edited September 9, 2010 by gnartsch

[BrokenArts]

Rose Cottage is amazing work. I don't understand how Saturnine and helpers could do all that, even with all the editor tricks on their side.

 

I remember when Dave/Saturnine showed me screen shots of his beginning work on it, mainly the bathroom. I was floored, you've got to be kidding me! I told him. He and caffeinated zombie made so many objects, it wasn't funny. I know towards the end, it was a mad rush to finish it, and get it released by Halloween. They got a lot of help tweaking that damn thing, bugs, triggers, making it work right. Wasn't easy.

[demagogue]

I played the first one but some time ago so I'm a bit muddled and may be mixing different memories in my head. Is this the one with a plague or something and parts of the city are separated?

 

The FM with the plague & separated city is Lady Rowena's Seven Sisters. The first Rocksbourg is set in city streets like that though.

[BrokenArts]

Seven Sisters is fabulous! Loved playing that one, she is so good at story telling. Love her work. I know she's been back at it again. Can't wait to see what she's makes again. She's another author I'll play in a heart beat, there are so many good authors, I can't name them all.

[Baddcog]

I've got to get T2 running on my machine. There are some FM's I HAVE to play eventually, but now I'm also curious about the mantling. I know ours is better but I always thought T2 was decent, better than some other games for sure.

 

I think one major thing with T2 is comfort level. It might be limited in alot of ways, but alot of stuff has been added and there are tons of ways to 'hack' around the drawbacks. So I can really see why alot of authors want to stick with it, they know it well and can get what they want done.

 

TDM is a whole new beast. it's not that hard to learn IMO, just different so there's that fear factor/ learning new stuff factor that I think is holding some back. Plus it's newer and people still aren't sure what can be done. I think the more FM's release, the more complicated they get... the more interested people will become.

 

And I think Yandros might eventually come over, but he's got a backlog of Dromed stuff to finish first.

[LEGION]

About Thief-mantling: I always make a little step back from ledges I want to mantle and so it works everytime, I´m even able to climb out of sewer-hatches from ladders, well, most of the time. But I´m speaking here from the OM´s, that I played the last year, and I´m still at 'Night of the Party' or what it was called, with the big Mechanist Tower. This must be the third or fourth time I play Thief2. Thief Gold I played at least 10 times. As someone said before, Thief1´s story and atmosphere is phenomenal, except 'Thieves Guild'. Maybe it is even the worse/missing dynamic lighting that makes Thief1 so special, so it looks more cold, I don´t know.

 

And I have to play so many FM´s, I tried a while ago to 'construct' sort of a campaign from the stories I read in the readmes to put it before or after Thief2, but the most I don´t know and I don´t even know where I should start, maybe with Rocksbergh, I heard that name so often lately...

edit: Oh no, after Thief2 I play T2X and CoSaS of course! Almost forgot them, shame on me...

 

I guess there is no other game outside with so much FM´s?

Edited September 9, 2010 by LEGION

[lost_soul]

"I think the more FM's release, the more complicated they get... the more interested people will become."

 

Absolutely. As more are released, it will draw a larger crowd.

[aidakeeley]

Ugh.

 

The only encouragement FMs should be getting is is to create for TDM!

 

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhh!!!

 

[demagogue]

I happy for people to start building on TDM. I just think people should never stop playing T2 FMs. I know I have a backlog in the 100s, just counting the ones sitting on my harddrive, and I have every intention to get through them over time, and there are a few I replay a lot, almost as a kind of ritual (A Thief's Holiday at Christmas being the biggest example; it's been played every Christmas since vers. 1 first came out). But I'm happy to take my time, too.

 

I'm interested also when the Open Dark Engine project gets done, being able to play all those FMs on an advanced engine and being able to tweak some gameplay stuff (like making the mantling better, etc.)

[Mortal Monkey]

So again, back to the central question I have contemplated since Night Watch. It is clear that even if you include good clues that many players will not study them. Should we make such difficult, complex FMs that will delight some players but frustrate others? Or should our aim be to entertain like a movie where every 'player' both enjoys it and is guaranteed to finish?

I don't think that some players enjoy getting stuck while others don't. Some players just happened to find all the clues, while the rest didn't, and it's all rather random.

 

One of the things that made Thief great, and I'm sure you'll agree, is the open-endedness and non-linearity. But what you have to realize is that this requires a little more from designers to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone. In a completely linear game you can force the player to do exactly what you want him to do, because you can trap him in a small area with only a handful of possibilities. This doesn't work nearly as well in a non-linear game, if you think about it.

 

The solution is, obviously, to provide multiple answers to every mandatory problem. Difficulty does not come from less solutions, nor from less obvious solutions. Difficulty comes from making the process of solving harder.

 

 

As for clues, a lot of designers seem to suffer from a delusion that all clues have to be formulated as a hidden message in a piece of text. There's nothing wrong with outright giving away the answer. A lot of the time you're not giving away half as much as you think you are anyway. You know the mission ten times better than anyone else ever will.

 

 

P.S.: Nowadays I often find myself wondering what the designer intended with something, rather than what I can do with it. It kills a bit of the magic, you know.

 

P.P.S.: I will never stop playing Thief FMs, so there's no need to try to replicate Thief exactly. But do steal all the good ideas.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Mortal Monkey

[stumpy]

even if you give people direct answers, some of them will still miss it even if its starring them in the face or just above their heads as most people never look up. as modern games are on the whole linear along a straight horizontal path, if you deviate from that design thinking your garenteed to piss off 50% of players 100% of the time.

 

eg

Your at the start of a map you've given the choice of 3 directions, 50% of the players who start the map email the designer asking what do I do here.

 

Your at the start of a map there is one direction, 50% of players who start the map email the designer with messages of fail, there's no choice, its so linear, and one idiot will email you a 6 page breakdown of why your map failed.

Edited September 10, 2010 by stumpy

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I don't agree that linear is bad. There are times for it and not.

 

And Thief II was pretty linear, I don't care what anyone says. First mission, you start at gate and play through the map. Sure, alot of the maps you can 'wander around' a bit. But you're still starting in one spot and ending in another. And with possible chokepoints in the middle.

 

it's almost impossible to tell a story and have things work if there isn't some linearity to it. My WIP starts linear, then opens up where player can do things in any order (but has to do it all), then closes off for the finale.

 

Too much free roaming and it's too easy for player to get lost/miss stuff. Like Morrowind, you can wander aroud for days and never complete one main quest objective. Thief doesn't play that way, you HAVE to get the objectives.

--

I do agree though that you can almost never win. One player likes it and one doesn't. One thinks it's linear and another doesn't... One person is fine with simple design and another complains it's too simple... Everyone knows best, even if they don't.

 

As an author you just do the best you can to make a mission how you see fit and deal with all the players who don't map but are experts at design, gameplay and story telling. And also with the appreciative ones that are just thankful you make missions, these are the players I care about.

[Fidcal]

In the last few minutes I've finished the first level of When Still and it is HUGE. The hugerest mansion I've ever played. Virtually all random access, poor map, so confusion and getting lost was common, very good story but story telling too lengthy and disjointed to remember everything. 5 hours 41m plus and I missed quite a bit I think. I wonder how many gave up or skipped to the next level. A good example of what could have been one of the great classics just needed polishing by one of the more advanced FM makers. This is where a good auto map, revised readables, good structured clues, and player notes (or my guide stone idea) would have transformed this and no need to keep quitting and posting on the forums. Look and learn folks.

[aidakeeley]

Only one thing can be done, Fidcal:

 

Invite the author to come collaborate with you in DR!

 

Imagine the convergence!

 

The beauty! The focus! The epicness! And the joy!

 

The happy happy joy joy.

[Fidcal]

Mmm... yes, that would give me more time to play Thief missions. Sorry, gotta go.

[Sotha]

Too much free roaming and it's too easy for player to get lost/miss stuff.

I don't agree to this, unfortunately. Free roaming means that the player gets to go anywhere he wants. The mission has objectives and the player knows what he is supposed to do and thus focus on visiting the locations which will likely help gaining that objective.

 

Controlling the player and confining him to walk through the rooms in a certain sequence results the player to get stuck and miss stuff when he fails to spot the key in the unlogical unbelievable place.

 

But yes, it of course depends on the map size, does the player have a map and other factors.

 

 

The fun thing is that all mappers can stick to their own style they prefer, thus providing a diversity of mission types from which all players can choose their favourite!