Nosslaks stuff

[Nosslak]

Ho, it´s amazing to see things evolve like this...

I'm making an even more in-depth making-of/tutorial of it as well.

 

You can use quite a few as long as you include a simple shadowmesh. Don't get too crazy, but the realm of an 800 poly object with a 120 poly shadowmesh would be fine. If you can do it in less (and given the size, you probably can), even better.

Wow, that is a lot more than I anticipated. I can probably bring it down to 300 without sacrificing any detail.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Nosslak

[Nosslak]

I think I'm done with the lowpoly modeling as well now. It landed on 366 polygons which I thunk sounds pretty reasonable considering the size of it. As it is now a lot will depend on the normalmap, but if you want I could model more of the details. Also I chose to bevel the 90 degree angles on the hammer, as I've got a huge polylimit of 800 and it's supposed to make it look a lot better when I apply a normalmap to it. What do you think? Should I model more of the details?

[Melan]

If the lowpoly is just for the shadows, I am sure that will be enough... otherwise, even 700-900 is going to be okay, since people will not use that many of this item in a single scene.

 

Secondly, I wonder if you would be open to modelling some simple machinery and electrics. At the moment, there is little to fill an electrical maintenance depot, pump station or similar place; you can go some way with brushes and patches, but not far enough. Here are a few examples from the original Thief game that could serve as inspiration, and would hopefully not take much modelling work to get a few of them into the game (spoilered to avoid scrolling):

 

 

Dynamo end protruding from wall framed by metal chassis (this wouldn't need to be too deep since it is essentially a wall decoration):

 

Dials and gauges:

 

Boxy electrical equipment with more dials (this can be imitated with brushes, but a properly beat up machine would be a different matter):

 

Mechanical fan (we have a model, but it is pretty low poly):

 

Switches and buttons (disregard the exact signage and colouring - TDM uses slightly more muted tones):

 

Transformers and coils:

 

Mechanical/electrical control panel:

 

 

Oh yeah, and don't treat this as a laundry list to go through, but if you could build a few similar models, that would be awesome. I love to create levels with lots of inscrutable machinery, and TDM is still missing a lot of the resources to do that properly.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Melan

[Fidcal]

I agree about the orb - I was going to suggest most of that detail depth could be in the normal map.

 

Re: the machines, I was wondering how we could add flickering needles and pulsing lights etc. I think if the models are made with the needles showing then copies of the image files made later without needles so an alternate skin can be made. Then we need animated decals I think of needles (probably one needle type on each) and pulsing lights and rotating cogs etc. But all that can be for later. I only say this because recently playing some Thief FMs with this sort of thing built in.

[Nosslak]

If the lowpoly is just for the shadows, I am sure that will be enough... otherwise, even 700-900 is going to be okay, since people will not use that many of this item in a single scene.

Alright, in that case I'll atleast model the big rims as well (maybe some diamonds too).

 

Secondly, I wonder if you would be open to modelling some simple machinery and electrics. At the moment, there is little to fill an electrical maintenance depot, pump station or similar place; you can go some way with brushes and patches, but not far enough. Here are a few examples from the original Thief game that could serve as inspiration, and would hopefully not take much modelling work to get a few of them into the game (spoilered to avoid scrolling):

Yeah, I'll try to make some machinery for you. Most of those doesn't look all that hard to make. I can atleast try to do some similiar fan, control panel and some similiar coils.

 

Oh yeah, and don't treat this as a laundry list to go through, but if you could build a few similar models, that would be awesome. I love to create levels with lots of inscrutable machinery, and TDM is still missing a lot of the resources to do that properly.

I'll see what I can do. I do like to make requests as then I know that it'll get used, so if you need anything else in the future just ask.

[Melan]

Thanks! I will try not to overwhelm you.

[Nosslak]

I agree about the orb - I was going to suggest most of that detail depth could be in the normal map.

Yeah, I'll just stick with the posted model, then. I did try to model the rims but as they're not that deep it didn't make much of a difference and I can't model all those diamonds/pearls either as it would take too many polygons to get them to look smooth and it'd create a sharp edge between those and the rest of the model which would make it look even badder. So you're right I'll just stick with what I have.

 

Re: the machines, I was wondering how we could add flickering needles and pulsing lights etc. I think if the models are made with the needles showing then copies of the image files made later without needles so an alternate skin can be made. Then we need animated decals I think of needles (probably one needle type on each) and pulsing lights and rotating cogs etc. But all that can be for later. I only say this because recently playing some Thief FMs with this sort of thing built in.

Couldn't you just use a plane with an alpha mapped needle that has an animation where it rotates? This way you wouldn't have to use animated textures which would save memory and you could get better a sharper result.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Nosslak

[Fidcal]

I don't know what an "alpha mapped needle" is but whichever method is best I leave to you.

[Melan]

It is basically a texture on a flat plane with transparency, like the grave fence model.

[Fidcal]

But why is that better than a decal? The decal would need a new animated texture but so would the model (or a new mover def entity.) I guess it's the old pros and cons: the model could be duplicated many times in game using less memory; the decal could be resized more easily. Possibly the model has a slight advantage in this case especially since all the needle, cog, and lights models could be all together with the main machine/control models so be more obvious what to do.

[Springheel]

Yeah, I'll try to make some machinery for you. Most of those doesn't look all that hard to make. I can atleast try to do some similiar fan, control panel and some similiar coils.

 

The more victorian steampunk we could make the machinery, the better.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3404564121_7abcaaec05.jpg?v=0

 

http://botropolis.com/wp-content/uploads/steampunkbaby.jpg

 

http://www.nerdcore.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/steampunkcdplayer.jpg

 

http://www.zogdo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/steampunk-computer-mod.png

 

http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/steampunk_frankenstein_computer_1-269x480.jpg

 

http://tequilasource.com/sanjosedelrefugio/pics/copper-alambique_3376_r2.jpg

 

Couldn't you just use a plane with an alpha mapped needle that has an animation where it rotates? This way you wouldn't have to use animated textures which would save memory and you could get better a sharper result.

 

What evidence is there that an animated texture uses more memory than an animated model? I'd be surprised to find that to be the case.

 

In this case an animated model would be less flexible for the mapper, as it would have to be saved as an md5mesh (which creates collision problems) and the mapper wouldn't be able to adjust it without making new animations. With an alpha-mapped needle texture, the mapper can modify the needle and the way it moves just by making a new skin.

[Nosslak]

The more victorian steampunk we could make the machinery, the better.

I love steampunk so that shouldn't really be much of a problem. I haven't made a lot of models with steampunk aesthetics but I tried (and succeeded IMHO) to make my spyglass look steampunk.

 

http://farm4.static....caaec05.jpg?v=0

 

http://botropolis.co...eampunkbaby.jpg

 

http://www.nerdcore....unkcdplayer.jpg

 

http://www.zogdo.com...omputer-mod.png

 

http://cdn.slashgear...r_1-269x480.jpg

 

http://tequilasource...que_3376_r2.jpg

Those are great. Thanks!

 

What evidence is there that an animated texture uses more memory than an animated model? I'd be surprised to find that to be the case.

It was just a baseless assumption from me. Sorry!

 

In this case an animated model would be less flexible for the mapper, as it would have to be saved as an md5mesh (which creates collision problems) and the mapper wouldn't be able to adjust it without making new animations. With an alpha-mapped needle texture, the mapper can modify the needle and the way it moves just by making a new skin.

I'll try to go with this then. I only have to fix a texture for the needle then, nothing else?

[Melan]

The more victorian steampunk we could make the machinery, the better.

Dunno; some of these are a bit too overwrought. I much prefer the relative simplicity of the Thief models/textures - they have more of a 20s Metropolis vibe than steampunk, which can be bothersome with its excess, and often looks like the host object had been attacked by some sort of weird mechanical cancer. You can recognise the first and last objects are the real deal because they are functional, and the others are overdesigned examples of conspicuous consumption. (offtopic, but here is a pretty good blog post that outlines the problem)

Edited October 31, 2010 by Melan

[nbohr1more]

That blog post brings up some interesting points but I would say that it overlooks the real history of steampunk as a fashion.

 

1) Steampunk novels by Gibson (et al)

2) Japanese Anime authors become enamored with the idea

3) Steampunk Anime

4) Japanese Cosplay folk start showing up in Steampunk garb

5) Western culture begins to co-opt Cosplay and Anime for it's own take on the fashion

6) Steampunk fashion is discovered by the West

7) Some Steampunk folk realize that westerners (Gibson, et al) started the whole thing...

[Baddcog]

We've already got the clock hands texture which can be applied to a small plane and makes a great (2 great) needles.

 

We had alot of discussion before and decided not to do alot in the animated department, everyone thought running things on scripts was better.

 

Maybe, but we deffinately need to have scripts ready for authors, and that's what my machines.map is all about. Having machine parts assembled and working. So far I haven't needed scripts, but probably will need them for bouncing needles of different speeds/rotations,etc...

So the mapper can make needles of any size , but really we should already have one for every gauge size anyway so it should be a non-issue.

 

 

issues with animated machines:

 

need anim for each action:

No needle movement, needle pegged on high, needle bouncing, etc... adds up to alot of file size, a scripted needle is really low file wise and we could have 20 scripts for it.

 

Would need a way to trigger anims (probably script, easy enough I presume)

 

Benefits:

 

Drag and drop ready to go machines.

 

No issues rotating them and losing the correct values (see prefabs - chests,cabinets)

 

But I'm getting off topic.

[Nosslak]

Dunno; some of these are a bit too overwrought. I much prefer the relative simplicity of the Thief models/textures - they have more of a 20s Metropolis vibe than steampunk, which can be bothersome with its excess, and often looks like the host object had been attacked by some sort of weird mechanical cancer. You can recognise the first and last objects are the real deal because they are functional, and the others are overdesigned examples of conspicuous consumption. (offtopic, but here is a pretty good blog post that outlines the problem)

Okay, I'll try not to overdo the steampunk theme.

 

We had alot of discussion before and decided not to do alot in the animated department, everyone thought running things on scripts was better.

Less work for me then, awesome!

 

Here's an update on the orb:

474 triangles and 2048^2 normal and diffuse. I'll need to lower the saturation of the red diamond and probably have to rebake ambient and normals but this should still give a pretty clear idea of what I'm going for. There's also some normal mirroring artifacts, but hopefully they'll disappear when I've rebaked it all.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Nosslak

[Springheel]

they have more of a 20s Metropolis vibe than steampunk

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of adding elements from the twenties to our setting. Hated the art deco in Thief. We're trying to keep the TDM setting more focused on a range from the 1600-1800s. Victorian machinery is really more appropriate, though it doesn't have to be as ornate as some of those examples--it should be dirtier and more functional.

[Baddcog]

globe is looking good.

 

We have some photo/textures of gems in models/props/textures. look for amethyst, diamond, emerald, opal, gem. Just photoshop em in. the easiest way to make the gems look real and match other stuff in game.

[Melan]

Orb's looking good! The overlaid gear by the base of the hammer comes out great.

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of adding elements from the twenties to our setting. Hated the art deco in Thief. We're trying to keep the TDM setting more focused on a range from the 1600-1800s. Victorian machinery is really more appropriate, though it doesn't have to be as ornate as some of those examples--it should be dirtier and more functional.

This is slowly turning into an off-topic discussion, but allow me to interject.

 

For me, the promise of TDM is to create Thief-like missions in a modern engine and with a powerful editor. My personal reference point for the setting/themes are the first game and Purah's missions: kinda-Gothic architecture, over-urbanisation, kinda-1920s-looking, time-worn technology plus some weirdness on the side. The "Georgian manors and ladies" vibe that cropped up in the second game leaves me cold, as does the more opulent technology of the Mechanists (although I loved Angelwatch). I understand that the TDM team might have a different artistic vision and perhaps a desire to create something specific to the mod, but personally, I would simply like to make missions I could make in Thief: The Dark Project, just better. Therefore, I hope TDM doesn't become too focused on its own thing, since that focus looks to be rather different from mine.

 

Of course, there are a lot of items from the 1660-1800s period that I would be happy to use (e.g. that alembic from the pictures you linked, esp. if it also becomes available with a black iron/rusty skin), but I would really really love to see objects inspired by or near-equivalent to those I attached to my post. Actually, the resource base for the mod already shows diversity in its models: we've got steampunkish steambots and elevators, but several lighting fixtures and technological objects that are more reflective of the grimy and beat-up feel of the original Thief. If that diversity can be preserved and extended, I will be a happy man

Edited November 1, 2010 by Melan

[Springheel]

Yes, I don't have a problem with any of those models above; what I want to avoid is things that look too modern--for example, machines with blinking lights, or modern-looking rows of buttons. Even something as modern as a gauge can be made to look more appropriate for the setting by using roman numerals and a clock hand instead of a red needle. Little details like that.

 

I definitely support the "grimy and beat-up" look for our machines.

[Sotha]

Here's an update on the orb..

 

Yep.. Lookin' good. (As always..)

[nbohr1more]

I can't wait to see that with a Gold cubemap applied!

[Nosslak]

globe is looking good.

Thanks!

 

We have some photo/textures of gems in models/props/textures. look for amethyst, diamond, emerald, opal, gem. Just photoshop em in. the easiest way to make the gems look real and match other stuff in game.

Hmm, I'm not sure. To be honest I don't like those textures at all, as they've got lighting baked into it. I might try to make a new diamonds pattern in Blender and just generate normals and ambient from that.

 

Orb's looking good! The overlaid gear by the base of the hammer comes out great.

Thanks! I was pleasantly surprised by how good the gear turned out too.

 

I definitely support the "grimy and beat-up" look for our machines.

I wanted to do a nice and clean machine, but I guess I could make a skin for that and just focus on making it old and dirty foremost.

 

Yep.. Lookin' good. (As always..)

Thanks!

 

I can't wait to see that with a Gold cubemap applied!

Neither can I! Do I need to make a texture that controls the reflectivity of the model?

Edited November 1, 2010 by Nosslak

[nbohr1more]

I think that you would need to use a blend filter stage in the material definition to limit reflectivity depending on grime (etc). (Presuming that the primary stage is the cubemap... if not, then blend add) ...

 

Here is a relevant topic:

 

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18781

[Baddcog]

I personally have no issues with a clean machine, of course some stuff is always newly built. But dirty skins are a must.