The Caduceus of St. Alban: Vertical FM Contest entry: Aug 8th, 2010

[id3839315]

Excellent mission. I was just begging for access to those

spider caves down under

though. What a disappointment not to be able to go there .

Same problem here.

 

I had to noclip the entrance because it's too small.

 

[nbohr1more]

AI...

 

 

I wasn't sure if I was missing some trigger that would change things but I felt that just one AI at ground level would've made the difference. Just take him off wall patrol and put him on the grounds. I can appreciate giving the players space and time to work out climbing options but I think that at least one ground-level AI would have made this perfect.

 

It's frustrating to have such a fantastic mission feel like it's missing an element. When I originally requested that the AI patrols be increased I figured that you would place the AI a little different. I still was unsure if I could really make this suggestion because the mission may have been intended to be more of a find-n-seek ...but I kept yearning to ghost around the ground level in suspense.

 

[Bikerdude]

I appreciate that people wanted extra Ai, but as Ive already said the performance hit would be too great..

 

Fids, whats the rules about releasing an updated version that just has a few tweaks and Ai...?

 

Same as feildmedic, separate versions (high end machine only etc)

Edited August 23, 2010 by Bikerdude

[nbohr1more]

I appreciate that people wanted extra Ai, but as Ive already said the performance hit would be too great..

 

Fair enough. I am grateful for the performance.

[Baal]

I haven't looked at the map file in the editor but maybe simplifying pathfinding with monsterclip could help the ai performance issues. I don't know enough about how the ai works but it's worth a try.

 

And great mission by the way.

[nbohr1more]

I love this map.

 

Tweaking the AI after release would be great in my book but I see the logic of prohibiting it to some degree. It's a tough one. At the very least if you find that you can tweak it better make sure to release the better version afterward.

 

If you were as willing to modify even non-contest maps from community feedback we would all be lucky.

 

How many commercial game developers actually listen to their audience after release?

 

As long as you make the changes your way I don't see it as a big artistic compromise.

 

I don't think fixing missions after the fact should be discouraged. I guarantee there are scores of folks here drooling over the pending re-release of Return to the City.

 

If you can improve things then do so, we will all be happier (as long as you don't pull a George Lucas and ruin the FM ...)

[Bikerdude]

I haven't looked at the map file in the editor but maybe simplifying pathfinding with monsterclip could help the ai performance issues. I don't know enough about how the ai works but it's worth a try.

Im playing around with adding more Ai just to see how bad the performance hit will be..

[Fidcal]

Maybe more AI on expert and warn players to play on Hard if they have a low end PC.

 

Yes, very nice. Just been for another stroll around in notarget just for the views. I guess we all have our favourite spots.

 

Another download mirror at http://www.fidcal.com/darkuser/missions/stalban.pk4

[Bikerdude]

Ok more Ai on expert it is then...

[Briareos H]

Er you can, remember the notes in the readme - things that look claimable are....

 

 

Same problem here.

 

I had to noclip the entrance because it's too small.

 

 

It was very hard to squeeze through but I finally did it after a lot of tries. Strange this didn't appear during beta.

I suggest making the tunnel a bit taller. Thanks for the great mission.

[lowenz]

Man, it's architecturally OUTSTANDING!

[jdude]

FAAAANNNTASTICCC 10/10 the hole way through Bikerdude

[Carnage]

Great mission you really have improved a lot. Business as usual was already good but the difference with that one is huge when you look at this one now. Loved your skybox, how did you create it? Overall performance was good on my 3500+, 1GB Ram and 7800 GT 256MB but at some point it started to stutter a lot. A quickload solved that problem. Like most of the people said a bit too easy because of the AI but yeah I know it's very difficult to keep the performance as high as possible. Had a big laugh at some of your readables and your briefing . Looking forward to your next FM which will be released in not too long

[PranQster]

Is there supposed to be no blackjack or weapons in inventory at all? Just started this mission and want to make sure that is right before I continue.

[STiFU]

Hey Bikerdude. You've done a pretty good job. The visuals were really great. Vertex blending, great lighting and a great choice of textures: Dark and grimy, just how I like it. If feels very natural all in all and you payed great attention to small details. You can count yourself as one of the top mappers as far as visuals are concerned by now, but there's always a but: There is still room for improvement on gameplay, but most things have already been said. In the future you should build every place with the possibility in mind that an AI could be walking along there, so there should also be enough room for the player to evade the AI. Adding further AI later on will be easier then, if betamappers should report your mission is too easy. Adding AI to this map however is nearly impossible I'd say because of your cluttered buildstyle, which does look good, but is not good for gameplay. I like the fact that I had to work with so little thievy tools. It is always good to limit those, so that the player has to think twice before he uses anything. It slightly raises the difficulty and finishing the map will feel a lot more rewarding. This also applies to health pots. Those should be spread very rarely across the map. There were by far not as many on this map than on your previous FM, which is good, but I would say, even fewer would've been better.

 

I applaud the fact that you tried to fake AO with grime decals around objects. AO is usually only a very subtle shading though, so the used decals are way too intense. Maybe we can do something about that in the near future...

 

Anyway, thanks for this FM. Once again, although it lacked a little on gameplay, it was a great explorational and visual experience.

 

Ah, one more thing. You included Fidcal's key-texture-tweaks into your pk4, right? I think whether or not to use stuff like that should be up to the player to decide. A mapper should never force gameplay settings on the player. (Yes, that also goes for playershadow, etc.)

 

Loved your skybox, how did you create it?

I believe it's the basic skybox prefab combined with the new skybox texture shipped with TDM 1.02, which I originally created for "Pandora's Box", so thanks... :D

[Diego]

I haven't even finished it yet, but it's really awesome!

 

Question:

 

Where is the exit secret tunnel? I've found the cave but, according to the poor guy's diary, it's a dead end.

 

 

BTW, think the ambient exterior light could be slightly reddish, because of the sunset.

[Bikerdude]

It was very hard to squeeze through but I finally did it after a lot of tries. Strange this didn't appear during beta.

My fault, one of my testers ask for some items in the tunnel to be changed, and I forgot to ad the arg ' solid 0 ' in the update this will all be sorted, including the extra Ai in the update..

Where is the exit secret tunnel?

tip - look for someone who is asleep

 

Man, it's architecturally OUTSTANDING!

FAAAANNNTASTICCC 10/10 the hole way through Bikerdude

Thanks guys, positive feedback is always a great motivator.

 

Had a big laugh at some of your readables and your briefing

hehe, Im glad someone gets my humor :-D, I just need to get someone else to proof read my grammar and spelling from now on.

 

Is there supposed to be no blackjack or weapons in inventory at all? Just started this mission and want to make sure that is right before I continue.

yeah I had this also, its in the map when you look via DR so I think it my be a possible bug.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Bikerdude

[Bikerdude]

• Hey Bikerdude. You've done a pretty good job. The visuals were really great. Vertex blending, great lighting and a great choice of textures: Dark and grimy, just how I like it.
• I applaud the fact that you tried to fake AO with grime decals around objects. AO is usually only a very subtle shading though, so the used decals are way too intense. Maybe we can do something about that in the near future...
• Anyway, thanks for this FM. Once again, although it lacked a little on gameplay, it was a great explorational and visual experience.
• Ah, one more thing. You included Fidcal's key-texture-tweaks into your pk4, right? I think whether or not to use stuff like that should be up to the player to decide. A mapper should never force gameplay settings on the player. (Yes, that also goes for playershadow, etc.)
• I believe it's the basic skybox prefab combined with the new skybox texture shipped with TDM 1.02, which I originally created for "Pandora's Box"

• The vert blending was done for my by Fids
• yeah, it how I get around lights with no shadows and yeah we need way more decal textures in 1.03
• Yeah I'm currently doing an update with more Ai..
• Well I used it coz I couldn't see the keys myself.
• Yeah I was very pleased when I found that skybox, I wanted to use a low world light with shadows to simulate the mood, but I got hammered performance wise.

[Bikerdude]

Btw, why has now one, including Fids himself commented on the fact i have used his name in both my Fm's...

 

[PranQster]

Had a good time with this one. Very nicely done. Grats!

The AI wasn't very challenging. It seemed that the guards were all a bit deaf and blind, except one* . But visually it was awesome.

I did find a couple of issues.

First:

I never needed the key for the inner vault door, even though it was supposed to be not pick-able. Picked it on the first try... it was just the metal crate inside there which was not pick-able.

 

Second:

I guess my thief got fatter drinking ale than the rest of the players did, because I could not get through the tunnel to the cave. No matter how hard I tried, turning and shaking the mouse, toggling the crouch button, etc. I finally had to noclip into there.

 

Loved the heliocentric model of the solar system (even if the book by it says it wasn't the heliocentric model). Kudos for that!

 

*One guard caused me trouble,

up at the water tower (awesome water tower, btw). He attacked me on the elevator, but somehow we switched positions and I sent him down the elevator to the floor below. Then I could explore around the water tower in peace.

 

 

I personally liked the key textures a lot... much more like the original Thief games.

Edited August 24, 2010 by PranQster

[PranQster]

Btw, why has now one, including Fids himself commented on the fact i have used his name in both my Fm's...

 

 

I noticed that. Figured someone else would comment.

[Fidcal]

Did I not comment before? I forget. Anyway, you asked for it! (haha )

 

Yeah funny and I appreciate the nod (so this is not personal ) but I think any references to actual modern RL or immersion-breaking. Even though this is fantasy I think treat fiction seriously or why should a player treat the game seriously? I remember HappyCheeze had a joke with his own user name in Storm. Can't remember if it made it into the final. But again, it just doesn't work for me.

 

I said in beta I thought the briefing was weak and again, why no reference to the recipe book. I'm a master thief. What do I care about a worthless second hand recipe book? How did I even know? A couple of sentences would give it meaning.

[Bikerdude]

I said in beta I thought the briefing was weak and again, why no reference to the recipe book. I'm a master thief. What do I care about a worthless second hand recipe book? How did I even know? A couple of sentences would give it meaning.

yeah, I Don't know where i got the idea for the cook book, I think we can blame Jdude with he suggestions, lol

 

In future (oldtown) will be grammar/spelling proof read by someone, so that missions aren't being let down by poor grasp of the queens English.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Bikerdude

[fraten]

Yeah, this Mission was fun. As many other already mentioned: great architecture, excellent detailing. And to make this short: this Mission is excellent and nothing I will say now, does change that.

 

I didn't like that the Builders were blind and deaf. I was dancing naked and brightly lit in front of them, singing a song about pagans and they just wouldn't care. I'm glad there was a recipe in the book referring to drugs, so they were all stoned, I assume. And personally I wouldn't have minded more guards. But then, of course, I would have needed a blackjack. Lacking that, I was looking for one. It was mentioned that a thief left his gear there. But there was nothing. And it was a pity that I had to noclip through the tunnel to see the spiders (and killing them was forbidden, again - why is that?). I don't see the point in making a tunnel too narrow to get through it.

And there could've been a strong hint to that secret room with the pagan book.

I could've been faster through the mission, but I was looking at that orrery for many many minutes... that was so cool!

 

[Fidcal]

I will be happy to proof read, make suggestions or even ghost rewrite your future readables Biker. I'm sure lots of others could do so too. (then you can help me make sumptious looking FMs like yours )

 

BTW nothing wrong with the recipe book. What was wrong was not giving a reason for it in the briefing. I can think of three possibilities:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Rare recipe wanted by nobleman who dined there once.
   
3. Cook is making drugs from mushroom recipe; recipe valuable on black market.
   
4. Many of your friends lost to drugs. You hate drugs. Destroy the recipe book.