What are the two Most Annoying DarkRadiant Issues?

[greebo]

This is directed at the Editor's Guild as a whole. I'd like to know if you can point out the 2 (in words: two) most annoying DarkRadiant issues or TDM Level Editing issues in general. What is really lacking in DarkRadiant or TDM? What is repeatedly forcing you to use lengthy workarounds? Which feature are you longing for the most? I'm not talking about "oh we need more AI" or "more wood textures would be cool", I'm rather interested in DarkRadiant and Editing Workflow issues.

 

Note that this is born out of my curiosity. I'm not promising anything (I have enough to do already), but maybe if I can identify a common pattern in your responses, this might give me some motivation to do something against it. I use DarkRadiant myself all the time, but everybody has a different way of using this editor, so I'd like to hear it from yourselves.

[Sotha]

DR is pretty excellent the way it is now.

My issues are:

• Readable editor crashes! When I started working on the Thomas Porter map series I wanted to have Thomas carry his diary the player would be able to read. I wanted that the diary gets updated with the mission so in the 3rd mission the diary would contain diary entries for the 1st+2nd+3rd missions and in the long run generate a diary-story of its own. However, the readable editor started routinely crashing after 10-11 pages, so I had to abandon the idea. Unfortunately I don't remember which DR version it was. I still hear some people are having difficulties with just basic operation with the editor.
• There is a new crash, which has occurred with the current version. Sometimes, when I right click on orthoview to create an entity, DR crashes when the selection window appears. I mean the selection window, which contains the options like "create entity," "create light," etc. It's very rare, but annoying nonetheless. So far it has occurred just after saving, luckily, so I have not lost any progress to it.
• The only new feature I'd like is, as you know, the player loadout/equipment editor.

I know you asked only for two (2) issues, but I'll give these three issues, since I cannot figure out anything else to complain about. Sorry.

[SiyahParsomen]

DR is pretty excellent the way it is now.

My issues are:

• There is a new crash, which has occurred with the current version. Sometimes, when I right click on orthoview to create an entity, DR crashes when the selection window appears. I mean the selection window, which contains the options like "create entity," "create light," etc. It's very rare, but annoying nonetheless. So far it has occurred just after saving, luckily, so I have not lost any progress to it.

 

same here. I thought it was only me, so didn't report it. It's waste of time to open editor again. Apart from that everything is perfect for me.

[greebo]

Incidentally, I resolved that crash yesterday. The next release should be working fine. (http://bugs.angua.at/view.php?id=2322)

[Melan]

Oh, maybe it is my ignorance speaking, but here is my one issue:

• Resizing cylinder and pyramid brushes: instead of a proportional increase/reduction of size as I am dragging things, it is the individual vertice points which are being dragged out of or into the regular shape (if I am making things clear). Basically, I'd prefer if this worked like Dromed, and vertice manipulation was left to the time when you are in vertex editing mode.

Correct me if I was just doing it wrong, and there is a correct way to do this thing.

[greebo]

Oh, maybe it is my ignorance speaking, but here is my one issue:

• Resizing cylinder and pyramid brushes: instead of a proportional increase/reduction of size as I am dragging things, it is the individual vertice points which are being dragged out of or into the regular shape (if I am making things clear). Basically, I'd prefer if this worked like Dromed, and vertice manipulation was left to the time when you are in vertex editing mode.

Correct me if I was just doing it wrong, and there is a correct way to do this thing.

When manipulating patches (including drag-resizing) one is always working with the control vertices, as these vertices are the patch. (The visible patch surface are interpolated using bezier curves.) However, notice that there are two types of vertices, green and purple ones. The patch surface is always passing through/touching one type of vertex, so when you drag-resize a patch as a whole you are also dragging those vertices along, and the patch surface is following strictly - the manipulation operation is as close as you can get.

 

Or did I misunderstand your problem?

[Melan]

Yeah, you probably misunderstood - this is entirely about brushes. I have no problem with patches. Here is an illustration that explains it better:

 

1) I create a cube and turn it into a 112x112 12-sided prism:

 

 

2) I try to resize the prism by selecting it and dragging its bounding box, but instead of a smaller, 96x96 12-sided prism of the same dimensions, I get this:

 

 

3) It would be better if this resize operation didn't distort the proportions of the brush (since I'd assume people would want to do it less often), and instead, simply resized it.

[greebo]

Ah, I missed the word "brushes", sorry.

 

I know that problem. I also know the reasons code-wise, but it is not easily fixable.

[Melan]

Ah. Too bad. Fortunately, there is still the rotate/scale menu, but it is an annoyance. Especially since I'd like to use more of these shapes.

[Fidcal]

Grid and camera zoom - Sometimes I need to get closer for fine work than DR allows in ortho view. Also when zooming in camera view up close to an object but that is not quite so critical.

 

Texture and patch column direction. It's not always obvious which way is 'vertical' and which is 'left and right'. There are only four directions to texture scroll/rescale but I can guarantee it is nearly always the last one I get to by trial and error! (Note here also that patch rescale seems backwards to me compared to brushes; decreasing the scale actually increases it.) Similarly, which is a row and which is a column when inserting more into a patch and which is the end and which the 'start'. Well I can tell you. It's the last one I try!

[ungoliant]

It would be better if this resize operation didn't distort the proportions of the brush (since I'd assume people would want to do it less often), and instead, simply resized it.

 

I think this is the same as what I was about to bring up as the most absolutely limiting factor:

 

I want concave brushes!!!!!! And i'm pretty sure your resizing and vert dragging problem stems from the fact that when it distorts it like that, it does this to follow the "rules" that if you draw a straight line anywhere through your brush, that line should not intersect the edges of the brush more than twice, which i guess constitutes the meaning of "convex". And that is the #1 most limiting factor with DR as i see it. I want to create pacman shaped brushes!

 

Other: that damn readable editor! I can't make it work and its almost impossible to get up motivation to do anything with DR while its broke. so that seems like a pretty limiting factor, and apparently I'm not the only one with problems. Not that i'm ungrateful for the early release, we're lucky to have a readable editor at all. But i've got a fever... and the only prescription is more readable editor!

[SneaksieDave]

Good tough question. If I try to answer it in the spirit of the question, that is what is forcing me to [waste time] or what's most desired:

 

* random or semi-predictable crashes (like the one fixed above!)

* an accurate lighting mode; ambient doesn't behave correctly, no shadows, and light levels don't match those in Doom -- this leads to a lot of back-forth-back-forth-back-forth trying to get lighting right.

 

But both of those are probably no-goes; the first might be fixed, and the second is a major re-engineering.

 

So, those things aside,

 

1. Definitely my most time wasting aggravation is in precise texturing. DR's texturing is very powerful, probably among the most powerful out there, but there are some annoyances that remain. Sometimes the texture on dupe/mirrored patches is somehow inverted and I just cannot 'reset' it to how it should be. So for instance aligned bevels in an arch will not line up no matter what I do. I must destroy and manually recreate one of the shapes. Worse, is this one from the texture tool: http://bugs.angua.at/view.php?id=2272 The texture tool is awesome, but this problem keeps it from being super-awesome. You're trying to align two faces, perfectly, you've almost got, but one of them needs to flip... BOOM, now it's way across grid space, 10,000 units away. ARGH. Rinse/repeat.

 

2. Recently, cloned items sharing the same space. I got a nasty bite from the fact that duplication is not undone by undo. As a result, practically half of a map I was working on was doubled. But not all of it, as I didn't select all of it for copy. So I had to go around manually and determine which entities/brushes were doubled, and manually remove them. ARGH. I just kept finding more and more as I went along. I agree undo shouldn't undo more than one step at a time (and closed the issue without contest). If there could be some kind of checker logic (a menu selection, maybe something like Edit | Validate Map or whatever) that says, "Two brushes of exact dimensions exist at the indicated selection. Delete one?" it would rock the world.

 

 

 

Edit: *cough* if I could add a third, it would be that all dialogs retain user settings (dimensions and xy coords). I think most do, but some do not (especially new additions).

[grayman]

WRT the Readables Editor, I wasn't able to use it when it first came out. Crashed when opening an existing readable, and crashed when typing in the "left page" field on a new readable. The crash occurred in the OpenGL library, and it wasn't until I updated my Catalyst drivers (9.3->10.8) that it finally went away.

 

My 2 comments:

 

I'd like to be able to select something in the ortho view and jump to it in the camera view. Same behavior as selecting something in the entities list ("J" key). It would have been a great help during the vert contest. Working up at the top of the map, then having to run all the way to the bottom to do something was a pain.

 

If you're moving the camera and you hold down the right mouse button, the move speed multiplies, but only in the horizontal plane of the move. It would be nice if the camera continued along the same vector. Again, the vert contest really brought out this need. I can get anywhere real fast with this, but only horizontally.

[SneaksieDave]

@grayman: I think this was mentioned in another thread, but I'm not sure. Anyway, my shortcut to achieve your first request: Select the item in ortho, then ctrl-tab (or whatever you have set to "NextView" in Shortcut List) thrice. This effectively centers on the selected object.

[nbohr1more]

Given my limited DR time, this is probably silly but I only have one issue so far...

 

I have been trying to line-up a detailed light projection-image with a far wall between two walls that have architectural decor. The image is designed to account for the decor but was designed from an Orthoview where it was easier to align.

 

If there was a way to make the camera view render "Ortho-Style" (no 3D distance perspective) or if there was a way to show the projection image as a transparent overlay for the Orthoview grid, then this alignment would be much easier.

 

Feel free to laugh if there's some two-key solution that I've overlooked by not finishing all my DR training

[grayman]

2. Recently, cloned items sharing the same space. I got a nasty bite from the fact that duplication is not undone by undo. As a result, practically half of a map I was working on was doubled. But not all of it, as I didn't select all of it for copy. So I had to go around manually and determine which entities/brushes were doubled, and manually remove them. ARGH. I just kept finding more and more as I went along. I agree undo shouldn't undo more than one step at a time (and closed the issue without contest). If there could be some kind of checker logic (a menu selection, maybe something like Edit | Validate Map or whatever) that says, "Two brushes of exact dimensions exist at the indicated selection. Delete one?" it would rock the world.

 

Do you have the "offset cloned brushes" mode on?

 

I've always been able to undo accidentally cloned brushes, so I haven't seen this problem. Unless you're referring to selected brushes un-highlighted after the undo. That's a big problem if you're cloning multiple brushes, 'cause you have to re-select them all.

 

But having a "2 brushes co-exist" check would be great. It would have to account for the floating point representation problem when near zero (1.23456e-10000000), though.

[grayman]

@grayman: I think this was mentioned in another thread, but I'm not sure. Anyway, my shortcut to achieve your first request: Select the item in ortho, then ctrl-tab (or whatever you have set to "NextView" in Shortcut List) thrice. This effectively centers on the selected object.

 

Yes, that centers the object in the ortho views, but doesn't change the camera view. I want the object centered and close-up in the camera view.

[SneaksieDave]

Yeah it's mostly about cloning multiple brushes, moving them, then deciding I don't like them there, or they must be adjusted first, or something else making me want a do-over. Then, (user error), I forget to undo the clone itself, and then I wind up with duped overlapping brushes. Anyway, I do agree it should stay as is. I don't like offset very much because I use Translate mode constantly, and if I'm trying to move the object along one axis only, well now it's off by one grid unit; small annoyance, easily fixed, but there you have it.

 

It's fine with how it is though. But for the case of ALL overlapping duplicates, regardless of the cause, I think a checker logic of some kind would be great.

 

I want the object centered and close-up in the camera view.

I think I read your request completely backwards. To jump to a spot in the camera view, there is ctrl-MMB, but yeah it'll take at least two ortho clicks to get it situated in 3D space; not a true "jump to entity."

[Fidcal]

SneaksieDave: Unless you know something I don't (eg, a setting) you also need Ctrl+MMB...

 

grayman: Ctrl + MMB in grid view moves the camera to that point so select the item, Ctrl+MMB in top view then repeat in side view if needed.

 

Might be nice though if one Ctrl+MMB also centred the side view if there is a selection.

[Baddcog]

Dave probably hit two big ones for me.

 

faces in tex editor jumping across the space insatead of flipping on the spot. makes it much more time consuming.

also you can't edit single verts on brushes but can only resize the whole brush from center, so to keep say the top align you have to rescale, move, rescale, move, 'i just want to drag 1 or 2 verts down (patches work poerfect in this regard)

 

And undo skips selection as a step. grab a brush, clone it, move it, undo, select, cut it, undo, undo, undo(or something) and it'll skip all the way back to a change before cloning that brush instead of justthe move it stage.

All other programs I use treat select and deselect as an undo step. I've noticed others complain about it too.

 

-------

probably hard to think of more, for the most part it's almost perfect. A few added feayutes would be nice but it works pretty damn well. I'm still on 1.4 but I've never had it crash on me yet (Dromed was multiple crashes per session most times)

[Tels]

SneaksieDave: Unless you know something I don't (eg, a setting) you also need Ctrl+MMB...

 

grayman: Ctrl + MMB in grid view moves the camera to that point so select the item, Ctrl+MMB in top view then repeat in side view if needed.

 

Bah, I was wishing for this functionality and wondered whether I should ask for it!

 

Hm, limiting myself to two things is hard, there are a couple but I can't decide which should be the top-two:

 

* Undo a "hide". Often when I map, I hide entities that are in my way. After a while, tho, I need one of them back, and the only way is to unhide them all - which also unhides everything else. If I could just press CTRL-Z to unhide the last hidden one, that would be good. (Sorting things into Layers will also help, but only after you have sorted your things into layers and even then you cannot undo a "hide", only hide/unhide an entire layer).

 

The next two could be solved with an in-game terrain generator, so if you wish, sort them in as low-priority for DR:

 

* equally distribute the rows/columns on patches. If you add two columns at the end, you end up with an unqueal distribution and the only way to distribute things equal seems to be manually shifting every row/column around.

 

* Align patch vertices/match coordinate. Imagine you a patch and move the vertices around to create a sort of a hilly terrain. Now clone the patch and put them next to each other. The height of the vertices of the second patch will not match the ones from the first, so you don't get a continous terrain. However, I have not found a good way to match the vertex coordinates in one axis - gridsnap snaps them in all coordinates to the grid, so it moves them sideways, too. Edit: A grid-snap only on axis X, Y, or Z would solve this and maybe have other uses, too.

 

For LOD models, also low priority for DR.

 

* The ability to "Undo" camera moves as well as snap-camera-to-grid. This is mainly for screenshots for LOD models, so it is not something most people will need, or even need it often, but when you don't have it, the only workaround is to open the map in the editor and move the camera by editing the coordinates..

[SneaksieDave]

On the texture front, can't believe I forgot to mention something that frequently makes me growl: when scaling a texture, it moves. It appears to try to anchor at the center of the face and go from there, but even that jitters some; just texture a face with a texture you can identify movement in, and click H and V scale up and down. It jumps around. If possible, it should anchor to one edge and expand outward. Hopefully that's related to the Texture Tool issues in that fixing one gets em both.

 

@BC: good one about selection being included in undo/redo. I thought that was tracked but I'm not seeing it right now.

[Bikerdude]

* an accurate lighting mode; ambient doesn't behave correctly, no shadows, and light levels don't match those in Doom -- this leads to a lot of back-forth-back-forth-back-forth trying to get lighting right.

To add to this, Lighting mode is still far too slow to be of any use.

 

There many things in DR that have thumping the desk though..

 

Existing (known)

• When I drag an item, if I don't left click someone on the grid it bloody well snaps back to its original location - 0002251
• some textures are transparent when selected, so you can see what your doing when trying to manipulate said textures - 002318 002336
• the lines inbetween patches/brushes that was introduced as of DR 1.3.2/1.4.0 - before it was easy to tell if there was a gap in my patch/brush work...

New

• When in texture tool, I would like said texture to rotate on the spot. And I would like the ctrl-g function (snap to grid) to work in the texture tool window.
• When I create a decal from a brush face I would like said decal to be 1 unit (@grid 0.125) away from said face be default. Its a right pain when trying to select a Decal when DR selects the brush under it instead.

Greebs, Shall I raise a request for the new issues..?

Edited September 28, 2010 by Bikerdude

[greebo]

I probably expressed myself unclearly in the first post. Folks, I didn't ask for a "list of features that I come up with as I type" to deposit special functionality that might come in handy in rare cases here and there. I was asking for real annoyances, things that break your workflow, such that I can identify how people are using it and how DR could better suit their working style.

 

Bugs and crashes are technically in that category, but those will get fixed eventually if properly reproducible, fixing fucking bugs is what I do most of the time anyway. On the other hand, if crashes are the primary thing that are annoying you, this is a testament that DR's functionality is already on a good level.

 

Also, I asked for two, that's 1+1 in most cases.

 

And no, please no requests on the tracker before discussing them in a separate thread, the bugtracker is somewhat full of more or less weird feature requests already.

 

Note that this is born out of my curiosity. I'm not promising anything (I have enough to do already), but maybe if I can identify a common pattern in your responses, this might give me some motivation to do something against it.

 

First, I just wanted to let this thread take its course and listen to what you have to say, but the train is already on another track, I guess.

[ungoliant]

*cough*concavebrushes*cough*